Frankly, I can’t judge the merits of this article because I lack the knowledge required. But I think at this point we know that all cryptocurrencies are ‘greater fool’ “investments”. [1] They are in every way totally irrelevant and detrimental to society. Governments are unfortunately slow to crack down on the exchanges, although progress is being made. And that effort is essential to battle the cancer that is the ra…
Using Benford’s Law to Detect Bitcoin Manipulation
71–80 of 96 posts
Re: Using Benford’s Law to Detect Bitcoin Manipulation
#72Earlier quoted context omitted.
I guess we need to make a distinction between the blog post and the Gary Smith post it links to here. Gary smith (the person I think you're referring to having spent a career in this) says this: >The market manipulation, the irrational price gyrations, and the enthusiasm of so many investors for investing in bitcoin (and other cryptocurrencies) is ample evidence that market prices are not invariably equal to intrinsi…
> the world is full of people who feel very different paying $100.00 vs $99.99 Agree, though that effect is not constrained to Bitcoin. Retail orders, for instance, follow Benford's law. This is despite well-documented psychological biases towards e.g. certain digits, whole numbers, round numbers, et cetera [1]. Benford's law [2] derives from deeper mechanics. As you point out, however, a better control would have be…
Re: Using Benford’s Law to Detect Bitcoin Manipulation
#73Earlier quoted context omitted.
The time series spanning 3 orders of magnitude over a course if years is not sufficient condition for Benford's law to apply. As a trivial example, a stock whose price started at $1 and increased by $1 every day for 30 years would span 4 orders of magnitude over that time period, but would not follow Benford's law. A formal justification for applying Benford's law to a time series like that would depend on some kind…
> As a trivial example, a stock whose price started at $1 and increased by $1 every day for 30 years would span 4 orders of magnitude over that time period, but would not follow Benford's law. You would expect if you deliberately created a security whose growth rate monotonically tends to zero over time that you would get anomalous results in any statistical point, but I don't quite see why you bring up this patholog…
Re: Using Benford’s Law to Detect Bitcoin Manipulation
#74Earlier quoted context omitted.
The time series spanning 3 orders of magnitude over a course if years is not sufficient condition for Benford's law to apply. As a trivial example, a stock whose price started at $1 and increased by $1 every day for 30 years would span 4 orders of magnitude over that time period, but would not follow Benford's law. A formal justification for applying Benford's law to a time series like that would depend on some kind…
> As a trivial example, a stock whose price started at $1 and increased by $1 every day for 30 years would span 4 orders of magnitude over that time period, but would not follow Benford's law. You would expect if you deliberately created a security whose growth rate monotonically tends to zero over time that you would get anomalous results in any statistical point, but I don't quite see why you bring up this patholog…
> The big one you need to look for is that the variable spans multiple orders of magnitude.
> Berkshire Hathaway going back to 1980 spans three orders of magnitude, so we're good there.
> BTC going back 7 years is also decent. It's not quite as good - only spanning two orders of magnitude - but it's enough that we would expect Benford's Law to apply better than it does in this graph.
This claim is false. I provided a counterexample to demonstrate as much. Whether or not it's "pathological" is both subjective and irrelevant.
Re: Using Benford’s Law to Detect Bitcoin Manipulation
#75The NYSE looks that way because of a stock market rule that if the price falls below US$1 for 30 days, it becomes a "penny stock" and will be de-listed. There's also a tradition that when a stock gets well over $100, it splits. (Berkshire Hathaway refuses to go along with this, but everybody else does.) So issuers tend to split and reverse split to stay in the traditional trading range.
Commodity prices and foreign exchange rates don't behave like that. They don't split or reverse split. Also, their price is different depending on which currency you view it in.
Re: Using Benford’s Law to Detect Bitcoin Manipulation
#76What is the statistical likelihood of this appearing by chance? Note that 2014 to today isn't actually that long of a timeframe, as prices in a time-series are highly linked to the previous data point. Berkshire Hathaway has been trading for several decades; so that's 40 years of data; as compared to 7 years of data. yet the author, by using the same charts, seems to falsely imply that these are remotely comparable.…
The progression of charts correlating with Benford is exactly what you would expect if the titles "NYSE, Berkshire Hathaway, Bitcoin" were replaced with "2800 tickers over 40 years, 1 ticker over 40 years, 1 ticker over 7 years."
Re: Using Benford’s Law to Detect Bitcoin Manipulation
#77Frankly, I can’t judge the merits of this article because I lack the knowledge required. But I think at this point we know that all cryptocurrencies are ‘greater fool’ “investments”. [1] They are in every way totally irrelevant and detrimental to society. Governments are unfortunately slow to crack down on the exchanges, although progress is being made. And that effort is essential to battle the cancer that is the ra…
I equally find it strange that people continue to come to hackernews- the Silicon Valley VC startup land - and can’t grasp that the infrastructure for programmable money might have some value. And write off p2p communication and coordination tools as zero-sum/ fraudulent games. And then wish for the government to ban other people’s jobs and hobby’s and communities because they don’t like it. Blows my mind that people…
And please don't reply with DeFi, that's not taking advantage of the inherent programmability of Bitcoin, it's just a marketplace based on failed economics.
Re: Using Benford’s Law to Detect Bitcoin Manipulation
#78Re: Using Benford’s Law to Detect Bitcoin Manipulation
#79Earlier quoted context omitted.
The author at statsmodeling.stat.columbia.edu is the person who wrote several of the books on things like this. I don't think he can be finger-wagged away quite so easily as that. There's a huge difference between this and the election one, which is that this one is working with data that satisfies the key statistical assumptions needed to properly apply Benford's Law, and the QAnon elections rigged claims didn't. (O…
The time series spanning 3 orders of magnitude over a course if years is not sufficient condition for Benford's law to apply. As a trivial example, a stock whose price started at $1 and increased by $1 every day for 30 years would span 4 orders of magnitude over that time period, but would not follow Benford's law. A formal justification for applying Benford's law to a time series like that would depend on some kind…
That's actually a great illustration of the kind of thing we'd expect Benford's Law to raise red flags about. Your hypothetical posits the kind of behavior that we would not expect to naturally come out of the kind of process that governs stock prices over time. Stocks simply don't have their price go up by exactly one dollar a day, every day, for thirty years.
(This is briefly covered in the the article, which describes how the other big assumption of Benford's Law is that you're working with a system where things tend to change by percentages rather than absolute values. So yeah, it's true, covering orders of magnitude is not sufficient. Nor did I claim that it is, mind. I was just pointing out the assumption that I thought he original poster was missing.)
So, if we saw the kinds of initial digits that your hypothetical produces, we would be correct to guess that this stock is behaving in an unusual way. And it would be a correct application of Benford's Law, because we can reasonably expect that its key assumptions apply.
By contrast, if we hypothesize a stock whose price goes up by exactly 0.0001% every day for 30 years, its record of daily closing prices would obey Benford's Law. In fact, it would match it so well that we would also (correctly) consider it to be suspicious.
No, it's not a formal justification in any case. It is just a red flag. It turns out that red flags are useful even when they're not admissible in court, because they provide an easy heuristic that you can use to help direct your search for more compelling evidence.
Re: Using Benford’s Law to Detect Bitcoin Manipulation
#80It's clearly manipulated. And it's manipulated because its roughly speaking globally unregulated, and tracks globally via cross-exchange arbitrage bots.
If the author found anything different I'd eat my ...hat, and if you believe the trading patterns are as pure and organic as the driven snow I've got an NFT of the Brooklyn bridge to sell you.
[1] https://www.cftc.gov/PressRoom/PressReleases/8369-21
[2] https://ag.ny.gov/sites/default/files/2021.02.17_-_settlemen...