A Victoria man has gone two decades without money • Hacker News Board

Re: A Victoria man has gone two decades without money

#181

Post by noduerme » Sun, Jul 25, 2021, 5:26 PM UTC

> “It would be a lot easier if everyone quit money at the same time, make a day of it, and then everyone can co-ordinate and start planting.”

> He takes a drag on his cigarette. “Yeah, it would be a shitshow. But there's certain steps that need to be taken, and I'm sort of the disposable one that can't be bought. So I can make the horrifying decisions that no one else can make."

The guy says he doesn't believe in evil. The only time in history that money has been abolished was under the Khmer Rouge. They also had no concept of evil, and made a good many horrifying decisions in service of total economic equality through forced poverty and mass enslavement. Because of course the people who don't want to quit earning, spending, owning and trading their goods and services need to be forced to do so, or else be eliminated.

Re: A Victoria man has gone two decades without money

#182

Post by Thorncorona » Sun, Jul 25, 2021, 5:27 PM UTC

henvic wrote: post #130

peterburkimsher wrote: post #11

I admire his resolve, though it's not something I'd like to take to the extreme. Spending more time with people who have less money (e.g. CouchSurfing -> BeWelcome, hitchhiking, dumpster diving) has been an immensely rewarding experience. Last week, I heard a message about investment, which said that the 3 ways to store wealth are stocks in companies, bonds in governments, and property (owned by banks or rich people)…

> (shouldn't that be a government choice?). Why? Just why? Why the hell can't I be free to move freely to a place where other people accept me? Why is it that a parasitic entity (the state) has to say whether they allow me in or not? Why should I be barred to enter a continental region of the world without convincing a bunch of bureaucrats that I'll be there just for a few days? > Privatisation is also taking over po…

I can't tell if you are trying to be sarcastic so I will respond in good faith.

> Why the hell can't I be free to move freely to a place where other people accept me? Why is it that a parasitic entity (the state) has to say whether they allow me in or not?

Because when a community decides to provides services to a people it must now have standards to decide who to provide services too. There are only 2 possible ways to solve this.

1: provide services to everyone. naturally this doesn't work.

2: provide services to nobody.

> Governments, or states, are responsible for most of the destructive behavior we see in human history.

This is a consequence of the state's monopoly on violence. By joining a society you voluntarily give up power to the government in exchange for services and protections.

Wars occur as a consequence of this exchange of power when states look out for their own interests, which include the interests of its people.

> Society has never been so peaceful as today.

Because the state has a monopoly on violence and has gotten more effective at enforcing that monopoly?

> Most private entities (companies or the third sector) do good for the people and benefit nothing from the misery caused by state actors and their wars.

I'm not sure if you are aware of the other functions that states provide but some of the functions you may find beneficial are ways to resolve conflict without violence, protections to people, and a standard of living. These are again, enforced with violence. Seeing as you moved from Brazil to the Netherlands I'm sure you are aware of the benefits you are granted.

Re: A Victoria man has gone two decades without money

#183

Post by imtringued » Sun, Jul 25, 2021, 5:30 PM UTC

xondono wrote: post #172

mikem170 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Before money people traded favors. You help me butcher my cow, I help you rebuild your house (which was more work then the cow), so maybe later on your brother helps fix my plow knowing he'll eventually get something in return, and now I am trading favors with you and your brother, etc. This bonded people. It would have been insulting to say "here are two chickens for your lamb, we are now even, I owe you nothing eve…

> Money originated as a way for kings to pay troops, who operated outside these village economies. That’s one theory, and it’s not even the one Graeber preferred. According to him (and supporting evidence) money originated as a way to “keep score” of debts. The question of the origin of money is an interesting one, but that will be probably be unsolvable, since some of the alternative theories (like barter) would lea…

Yes, money is just a token to keep track of your balance sheet intuitively. Given a secure enough institution we could do it entirely on paper.

Re: A Victoria man has gone two decades without money

#184

Post by noduerme » Sun, Jul 25, 2021, 5:32 PM UTC

aunty_helen wrote: post #179

noduerme wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've heard the nobility of homelessness and joblessness expressed as an ethos countless times by people who wouldn't care for the work of living off-grid. I happen to work in a town with some of the highest taxes in the country that's also one of the most attractive places for indigent campers. The park across from where I live has become a tent city. I get the pleasure of paying for its "upkeep" while also having to…

>At best as a society itself, it's a drum circle, getting high, talking about the universe without doing anything much, and escaping. People have different values. Long ago we forgot that if it's not shown on mtv as something to aspire towards it's not the best pursuit of our time. All the best chasing that lambo you'll never afford whilst looking over your shoulder at others smart enough not to get into that game.

You're talking to someone who lived on the road for 10+ years and spent plenty of time in music circles on beaches discussing the nature of the universe. All of which came to very little. I don't work and earn to chase a new car. I do it to give my life meaning and to afford a good future for myself and my family. And yeah, I have every right to look down at the people who think they're being so smart by "not getting in that game". Even on the road, I always worked. I didn't do drugs regularly. And I never begged. I wasn't a parasite, like so many. Often, other travelers would look down on me for that. Where are they now? Lying in ditches, muttering to themselves.

Re: A Victoria man has gone two decades without money

#185

Post by spodek » Sun, Jul 25, 2021, 5:34 PM UTC

helsinkiandrew wrote: post #74

I’m not sure living in the city off handouts, charity, and free tax payer provided facilities exactly promotes his no money philosophy. His life relies on the things he despises, if the economic collapse he predicts comes he will be among the first to starve to death. Go into the wild and grow/hunt food or trade some skill - the post money society doesn’t need philosopher poets scavenging cigarettes from trash cans

Yes, he receives handouts, but you left out his values of simplicity, community, and such.

Jeff Bezos, the Walton family, and many peers also live off taxpayer money and impoverish poor communities by siphoning money from them, plenty of regulatory capture.

Re: A Victoria man has gone two decades without money

#186

Post by willhinsa » Sun, Jul 25, 2021, 5:34 PM UTC

aunty_helen wrote: post #179

noduerme wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've heard the nobility of homelessness and joblessness expressed as an ethos countless times by people who wouldn't care for the work of living off-grid. I happen to work in a town with some of the highest taxes in the country that's also one of the most attractive places for indigent campers. The park across from where I live has become a tent city. I get the pleasure of paying for its "upkeep" while also having to…

>At best as a society itself, it's a drum circle, getting high, talking about the universe without doing anything much, and escaping. People have different values. Long ago we forgot that if it's not shown on mtv as something to aspire towards it's not the best pursuit of our time. All the best chasing that lambo you'll never afford whilst looking over your shoulder at others smart enough not to get into that game.

There's a huge difference between "chasing that lambo" and working to build and keep a stable environment for your family, community, and society.

Re: A Victoria man has gone two decades without money

#187

Post by willhinsa » Sun, Jul 25, 2021, 5:37 PM UTC

imtringued wrote: post #178

saltdoo wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rising inflation says otherwise. Worst effects may be yet to come.

Inflation is bad for lenders (i.e. people keeping deposits in USD). People who work get paid based on their real value which means their pay rises if inflation rises. Of course it maybe difficult to get a raise for your current job but switching jobs will get you a raise that catches up to inflation. Here is a chart: https://imgur.com/a/eOXF0UO Note that there has been a shift in bargaining power since 1980 that is c…

It's also incredibly bad for pensioners, and often there's a lag between cost of living increasing and wages increasing that can be quite painful until things equalize, which sometime never happen.

Re: A Victoria man has gone two decades without money

#188

Post by imtringued » Sun, Jul 25, 2021, 5:45 PM UTC

kypro wrote: post #16

I don't see how taking from everyone and giving very little in return is moral. If everyone did this we'd all live in a far worse world. This is basically the antithesis of my own moral code to give more than I receive. I relate to him in that I value money very little as a medium to facilitate my own happiness, but I still want to make a lot of it so I can give more. He seems sweet though. I think I would get on wit…

>This is basically the antithesis of my own moral code to give more than I receive.

Noo! You can't do this. If everyone did this everyone would be better off!

Re: A Victoria man has gone two decades without money

#189

Post by okareaman » Sun, Jul 25, 2021, 5:47 PM UTC

kevmo wrote: post #112

okareaman wrote: post #100

Money is only one kind of power as I learned from going from working stiff to millionaire (thanks software biz!) to homeless broke person (cursed alcohol.) There is the shamanic-like power of a deeply spiritual person. There is the leadership power of a good manufacturing supervisor or ship captain. There is the moral power of Martin Luther King or Solzhenitsyn. I've come to the conclusion that accumulating money is…

> Would this person have any power if they weren't rich? A lot of times the answer is no. In my experience, the answer is no like a solid 90-99% of the time. At least in America, the wealthy buy their kids into elite high schools, which feed into elite colleges, which feed into jobs at elite, increasingly monolithic institutions/corporations. Junior gets to fail again and again until they succeed, and then the return…

I feel a bit sorry for them, because with money you can build yourself a really nice gilded cage (or be born in one), which is extremely difficult to escape from because it would take giving up the money. This makes it hard to develop the other kinds of powers I mentioned. I believe these thoughts are not my own, but are the basis of ideas like "The love of money is the root of all evil" and "Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God." (I am not a Christian but I am familiar with it - I'm sure I could find similar thoughts in other religions)

Re: A Victoria man has gone two decades without money

#190

Post by imtringued » Sun, Jul 25, 2021, 5:48 PM UTC

totony wrote: post #166

kypro wrote: post #16

I don't see how taking from everyone and giving very little in return is moral. If everyone did this we'd all live in a far worse world. This is basically the antithesis of my own moral code to give more than I receive. I relate to him in that I value money very little as a medium to facilitate my own happiness, but I still want to make a lot of it so I can give more. He seems sweet though. I think I would get on wit…

>This is basically the antithesis of my own moral code to give more than I receive. This is mathematically impossible to apply universally. Can it be a moral code if it can't be universal? Although this might be applicable if you live in a wealthy circle and there are poor circles.

>This is mathematically impossible to apply universally. Can it be a moral code if it can't be universal?

It's obviously impossible but it is better than the inverse which is also impossible. The difference is that if you are below the potential that is actually possible you will approach the maximum potential of your society. You're failing, but you are failing upwards.

"taking from everyone and giving very little in return is moral." is effectively trying to approach the minimum potential of your society i.e. zero.