PinePhone – Open Source Smart Phone Supported by Major Linux Phone Projects • Hacker News Board

Re: PinePhone – Open Source Smart Phone Supported by Major Linux Phone Projects

#191

Post by deltaonefour » Sun, Jul 25, 2021, 2:15 PM UTC

christophilus wrote: post #146

d110af5ccf wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> common Linux interfaces are very easy to decipher and have a good usability Then you are an absolute god of IT and have a very skewed perception of things as a result; alternatively you've made up your own definition of the word "usability" that absolutely no one else uses. I think Linux is great. I love the customizability it brings to the table and get a lot out of it. The time and effort invested to get here has…

Gnome 40 is just about as usable as anything I’ve ever used. I honestly find it more intuitive than Mac or Windows at this point. My mom uses Linux now with zero problems, so it passes the anecdotal non-technical old lady test.

All linux distros bias towards command line. It's not because of the distro or the GUI itself. It's because the entire FOSS ecosystem itself biases towards that interface so it doesn't matter how advanced Gnome or KDE or any of those GUI layers get a command line shell will always be a major part of linux and that brings usability down quite low when compared with closed source.

Of course I will caveat this by saying "overall" usability. Clearly with training CLI's can be superior to GUIs. But most people won't be willing to do this, so ONLY from an overall perspective CLIs are worse.

Re: PinePhone – Open Source Smart Phone Supported by Major Linux Phone Projects

#192

Post by deltaonefour » Sun, Jul 25, 2021, 2:19 PM UTC

gsich wrote: post #129

onli wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The common Linux interfaces are very easy to decipher and have a good usability. Usability is measurable property, so that's not a guess, just a fact. Add to that the higher task purpose you can get with Linux (partly boosted by not having annoying blockers to get work done, like Windows ads and forced reboots) and the infinitely higher customizablity (for the user's needs and wants) and for general computer usage, t…

>The common Linux interfaces are very easy to decipher and have a good usability. CLI? Absolutely. Desktop interfaces are an inconsistent mess.

The CLI I would argue sucks. Compared with powershell? Powershell is better designed.

But that's besides the point. CLIs in itself are harder to use than GUI and the entire FOSS ecosystem biases itself towards CLI. So that in itself is a marker for inferior usability.

With training a CLI can be made superior in many aspects to a GUI. But it takes training and mostly only people in IT are willing to go through this training. Overall from a common users' standpoint, GUIs are superior.

Re: PinePhone – Open Source Smart Phone Supported by Major Linux Phone Projects

#193

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Jul 25, 2021, 2:26 PM UTC

rglullis wrote: post #190

pjmlp wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except at the end of the day catering for 1% of the desktop is too much to ask for to cripple business operations with, when 99% of everyone else is coming in with Windows and macOS laptops.

Not at all. The peripherals that work with Linux also will (likely) work with Windows or MacOS.

[deleted]

Re: PinePhone – Open Source Smart Phone Supported by Major Linux Phone Projects

#194

Post by onli » Sun, Jul 25, 2021, 2:31 PM UTC

deltaonefour wrote: post #189

onli wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The common Linux interfaces are very easy to decipher and have a good usability. Usability is measurable property, so that's not a guess, just a fact. Add to that the higher task purpose you can get with Linux (partly boosted by not having annoying blockers to get work done, like Windows ads and forced reboots) and the infinitely higher customizablity (for the user's needs and wants) and for general computer usage, t…

>The common Linux interfaces are very easy to decipher and have a good usability The most common interface is bash (or alternative bash-like languages). Which is pretty much required if your a hardcore linux user. Applications push users towards command line interfaces. This is NOT easy to decipher. You are lying to yourself. >Of course, usability always depends on the specific task you have to do in a given context.…

Mate, you are taking this too personal. your account here won't survive long like that. The "smearing foss" comment wasn't targeting you.

You are just wrong about the usability and compatibility. Especially compatibility is the strong suit of FOSS software in general and Linux specifically. There is broader hardware and software support. It's a fact, get over it. Usability always depends on the context and task, your general statement is bs - and it clashes with the comments you got of novice users working very well with Linux. Usability is defined in a DIN ISO norm, have a look at that before using it for arguments.

Your comment is too long to go into the details, but I'll response in short to the main points:

1. No, Bash is not the most common interface, though I like it. It has to be used for the rare edge case, everything else can be done with GUIs. If your impression is otherwise you are not using mainstream distros nor are you doing regular tasks. Use Gnome or KDE on Ubuntu and stop distro hopping.

2. I'm playing exclusively on Linux since Proton got introduced, though I even used Linux for games before that. I'm okay with the occasional game not working, as Windows was vastly more cumbersome to keep in a working state, plus the many games that did not work there will also not be forgotten by me.

3. Void Linux is my current choice. I was a supporter in a Ubuntu forum and used that for many years, and still for the dayjob. I did use Funtoo for a while in between.

Re: PinePhone – Open Source Smart Phone Supported by Major Linux Phone Projects

#195

Post by kilburn » Sun, Jul 25, 2021, 2:34 PM UTC

pessimizer wrote: post #34

that_guy_iain wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Once they get the software worked out over the next few years though, it'll be the best thing out there. No ads, no bullshit, just a phone with a mainline linux distribution. I'm coming to the realisation that open source projects will always provide a lower quality than comerical ones. How can we honestly expect a small team of developers to compete with the larger teams a commerical project can afford? The realit…

The reason Linux phones suck at calls has nothing to do with the quality of the software, it's that the hardware vendors make it very very hard to do a very basic thing in a FOSS way. I honestly think the government should step in.

The sad part is that governments did step in and mandated that anything with a radio MUST follow a bunch of rules (certification) and MUST implement measures to ensure that the device cannot reasonably be made to operate outside of those rules.

The end result is that while difficult, you can make something like a pinephone where everything is open source EXCEPT for the radio modules and their firmware.

Re: PinePhone – Open Source Smart Phone Supported by Major Linux Phone Projects

#196

Post by deltaonefour » Sun, Jul 25, 2021, 2:36 PM UTC

throwawayswede wrote: post #23

deltaonefour wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>That is not true. As far as I am concerned Linux is clearly superior OS for my laptop over commercial alternatives. I would argue Linux is only superior from the IT software perspective. This is a very narrow perspective that is only inflated if you're in IT or on an IT related site like HN. From almost every other dimension Linux is inferior and therefore from an Overall perspective it is inferior. The most importa…

> From almost every other dimension Linux is inferior and therefore from an Overall perspective it is inferior. That's just preposterous. Linux user friendliness has not been slow or fragmented, it has come really far just in the last five years. Windows on the other hand has gotten relatively worse since the 'high' periods of early NT kernel OSes. > The most important dimensions for an operating system are usability…

>Incorrect. It is only "one" of the important dimensions, but to call it "the most" important one is at -at the very least- misguided and absurd.

It is the most important dimension and the only dimension most users care about. Fully correct.

>Your inability to use many of the user friendly distros available (like Mint or Elementary) cannot be generalized to the wider public.

Illogical statement and incorrect. I've used Mint and elementary and all the issues remain. But let's say you're right.

Then this would STILL be a usability issues. Too many choices... a user has to dig and choose the right distro to be "easy" to use.

>Do some research.

You do the research. I'm more well informed than you.

Re: PinePhone – Open Source Smart Phone Supported by Major Linux Phone Projects

#197

Post by majkinetor » Sun, Jul 25, 2021, 2:37 PM UTC

deltaonefour wrote: post #192

gsich wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The common Linux interfaces are very easy to decipher and have a good usability. CLI? Absolutely. Desktop interfaces are an inconsistent mess.

The CLI I would argue sucks. Compared with powershell? Powershell is better designed. But that's besides the point. CLIs in itself are harder to use than GUI and the entire FOSS ecosystem biases itself towards CLI. So that in itself is a marker for inferior usability. With training a CLI can be made superior in many aspects to a GUI. But it takes training and mostly only people in IT are willing to go through this tr…

We can have both tho. What stops you to use funky GUI to tidy up things then have 'export to powershell' command ?

Re: PinePhone – Open Source Smart Phone Supported by Major Linux Phone Projects

#198

Post by Const-me » Sun, Jul 25, 2021, 2:45 PM UTC

I wonder how hard is gonna be to remove the complete GUI including display manager from that Linux, and replace with something else?

Unfortunately, they don’t seem to have GLES 3.1 GPU. Still, I might be able to back port to GLES2, the GPU side is not terribly complicated: https://github.com/Const-me/Vrmac/

Re: PinePhone – Open Source Smart Phone Supported by Major Linux Phone Projects

#199

Post by xbmcuser » Sun, Jul 25, 2021, 2:48 PM UTC

Looking at how the Western and Eastern economies are making blocks supporting USA or China. It is my prediction that in the coming coldwar/economic war ironically it will be China from where we will be getting free/opensource hardware rather than the west where corporate IP and patent monopolies control everything.

Re: PinePhone – Open Source Smart Phone Supported by Major Linux Phone Projects

#200

Post by akho » Sun, Jul 25, 2021, 2:55 PM UTC

pjmlp wrote: post #154

akho wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Average users use Linux all the time, it’s in everything. You’d need to ask the developers writing all these router OSes, smart televisions, Android phones, … whether they chose Linux because of its high quality or, I guess, randomly?.. Try giving an average user Photoshop. See how they weep. These thought experiments are really hard to apply to software on complex domains. OpenOffice is indeed a terrible example.

Indeed, and they do so willingness, because the Linux kernel is a detail completely hidden away to them. The OS vendor can change the kernel being used, and those average users won't notice it all. The only quality is being a free beer OS, that the OEM vendors can leech at will without bothering one second up-streaming their changes. And when the community started to be too vocal about it, efforts to use MIT/BSD lice…

The quality is being solid, easy to develop for, and, yes, free. I think you overestimate the ability of appliance companies to develop proprietary OS kernels.

MIT/BSD licensed stuff is still free software.