Toyota automatically stops car before it can hit pedestrian • Hacker News Board

Re: Toyota automatically stops car before it can hit pedestrian

#51

Post by DrewG » Fri, Jul 22, 2011, 6:22 PM UTC

enjalot wrote: post #45

mostapha wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's interesting, because Mercedes's Traction Control system almost killed me one night. Apparently it's possible to accidentally induce a very slight but controllable oversteer slide by overshooting the exit to a fast curve and touching a rumble strip with the outside tires. No surprise there. In a normal car, you keep your front wheels on the line you want to follow, release power, then smoothly add power to "shi…

I think you should keep in mind that you appear to be an intelligent, skilled and avid driver. For you driving is an experience you take seriously and also seem to enjoy. I'm not worried about what you do on the road, but I am worried about the millions of less intelligent and skilled drivers that are pushing 3000lbs of metal around at lethal speeds. I think you are justified in wanting and buying a machine that suit…

I'm afraid this is whats going to prevent adoption of more automatic cars. The people who care about cars don't want the features, but its the people who don't care about cars that would benefit most. And they don't pay attention.

Re: Toyota automatically stops car before it can hit pedestrian

#52

Post by gfodor » Fri, Jul 22, 2011, 6:41 PM UTC

mostapha wrote: post #49

gfodor wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may not want the car to wake you up, but you'll certainly want the car of the incompetent driver next to you to wake him up before he careens into you on the highway.

No, I don't. I'd rather he have to take responsibility for his actions and decide whether he really needs to take that chance instead of thinking "it's okay that I'm exhausted…my car will wake me up."

Most of the time, in my own experience, when I am close to falling asleep while driving, I would have never been able to realize how tired I was before leaving on the trip. Even if you feel wide awake before you leave your destination, a late night drive on the highway can induce sleep, with the hum of the highway and the flying by of the lines on the road.

You're basically suggesting that people decide to not get in their cars if they even slightly think they might be too tired to drive. You know as well as I do that there's no way to measure this (unlike drinking, where if you consumed any alcohol in the last several hours you shouldn't get behind the wheel.) So, it's a bit of a pipe dream to think drivers are actually in the position to make a judgement call about their own risk of falling asleep at the wheel before leaving.

Regardless, my point was that these safety systems are meant to protect responsible drivers from irresponsible ones. I'm skeptical that the presence of safety systems could somehow convert a responsible driver to an irresponsible one.

Re: Toyota automatically stops car before it can hit pedestrian

#53

Post by mostapha » Fri, Jul 22, 2011, 6:41 PM UTC

DrewG wrote: post #51

enjalot wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you should keep in mind that you appear to be an intelligent, skilled and avid driver. For you driving is an experience you take seriously and also seem to enjoy. I'm not worried about what you do on the road, but I am worried about the millions of less intelligent and skilled drivers that are pushing 3000lbs of metal around at lethal speeds. I think you are justified in wanting and buying a machine that suit…

I'm afraid this is whats going to prevent adoption of more automatic cars. The people who care about cars don't want the features, but its the people who don't care about cars that would benefit most. And they don't pay attention.

Once again, they won't benefit if the systems aren't a hell of a lot better than Mercedes was capable of producing in 2006.

And unless you know what's going on "under the hood" well enough to either evaluate their code or design a real-world test that you can perform in an empty parking lot…you're left to decide based on what Mercedes says. And they're never going to say "our system can't detect the cause of a skid…it just reacts based on detecting the speed wheels are spinning and assumes the driver is completely incompetent."

Some of the systems are great. There's no reason a car sold today shouldn't have ABS: the driving techniques required to get similar performance out of non-ABS brakes are very skill specific and time-intensive to develop. It's not worth it for >99% of drivers. And there are "good" traction control systems. Subaru's computer-controlled differentials in their AWD system are pretty good. But that system isn't capable of making a mistake as bad as the "active braking" systems that are coming out.

Re: Toyota automatically stops car before it can hit pedestrian

#54

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Jul 22, 2011, 6:50 PM UTC

mostapha wrote: post #49

gfodor wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may not want the car to wake you up, but you'll certainly want the car of the incompetent driver next to you to wake him up before he careens into you on the highway.

No, I don't. I'd rather he have to take responsibility for his actions and decide whether he really needs to take that chance instead of thinking "it's okay that I'm exhausted…my car will wake me up."

[deleted]

Re: Toyota automatically stops car before it can hit pedestrian

#55

Post by mostapha » Fri, Jul 22, 2011, 6:51 PM UTC

gfodor wrote: post #52

mostapha wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I don't. I'd rather he have to take responsibility for his actions and decide whether he really needs to take that chance instead of thinking "it's okay that I'm exhausted…my car will wake me up."

Most of the time, in my own experience, when I am close to falling asleep while driving, I would have never been able to realize how tired I was before leaving on the trip. Even if you feel wide awake before you leave your destination, a late night drive on the highway can induce sleep, with the hum of the highway and the flying by of the lines on the road. You're basically suggesting that people decide to not get in…

You don't make the decision to drive and then that's it. At any point, you can decide "i'm too tired," and pull off.

Take a nap in your car. Let someone else drive if you're not alone. Call a cab and pick up your car in the morning. Call Safe Ride, and they'll send a driver and a moped that will fit in your trunk if you're somewhere they operate.

There are always alternatives to putting yourself in a dangerous situation. And, I believe these systems will lead people to drift further into these types of dangerous situations before even thinking about safer alternatives.

Re: Toyota automatically stops car before it can hit pedestrian

#56

Post by DrewG » Fri, Jul 22, 2011, 6:53 PM UTC

mostapha wrote: post #50

enjalot wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you should keep in mind that you appear to be an intelligent, skilled and avid driver. For you driving is an experience you take seriously and also seem to enjoy. I'm not worried about what you do on the road, but I am worried about the millions of less intelligent and skilled drivers that are pushing 3000lbs of metal around at lethal speeds. I think you are justified in wanting and buying a machine that suit…

Driving at a high level is one thing. It requires a lot of skill and concentration. Not killing people is completely different: it requires basic skills and some small measure of multi-taking ability. Which is more important, reacting to the car changing lanes without a signal in front of you or finishing your sentence RIGHT NOW ? The problem isn't even skill level. Driving normally at city and highway speeds is easy…

It's not the average drivers that need help, its the bad drivers. The ones who roll through a red light turning right, but look left the entire time, which is a very common way for pedestrians to get hit by cars. The system in the article would probably prevent tons of those accidents. I'm all for taking control away from bad drivers, even if that means we also have to take control away from the average and good drivers.

Re: Toyota automatically stops car before it can hit pedestrian

#57

Post by mostapha » Fri, Jul 22, 2011, 6:53 PM UTC

gst wrote: post #23

rubinelli wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't be surprised if groups that work with visually impaired people, for example, lobbied to get a minimum noise level added to regulations.

That's exactly the wrong approach. Better approach: Install a small wireless sender in the car that broadcasts at a given frequency. Then allow people who want a minimum noise level to buy a small receiver that broadcasts those signals (or another type of indication signal) to a headset. This allows you to keep the noise level down and at the same time provides "notifications" to the visually impaired.

Headsets would also decrease your ability to hear other things. You'd hear the prius with the transmitter but not the real cars or other pedestrians or bicycles.

Dumb idea.

Re: Toyota automatically stops car before it can hit pedestrian

#58

Post by DrewG » Fri, Jul 22, 2011, 6:56 PM UTC

mostapha wrote: post #53

DrewG wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm afraid this is whats going to prevent adoption of more automatic cars. The people who care about cars don't want the features, but its the people who don't care about cars that would benefit most. And they don't pay attention.

Once again, they won't benefit if the systems aren't a hell of a lot better than Mercedes was capable of producing in 2006. And unless you know what's going on "under the hood" well enough to either evaluate their code or design a real-world test that you can perform in an empty parking lot…you're left to decide based on what Mercedes says. And they're never going to say "our system can't detect the cause of a skid…i…

So you are in favor of technology that takes control away from drivers as long as it works? Perhaps we are actually on the same page here...

Re: Toyota automatically stops car before it can hit pedestrian

#59

Post by mostapha » Fri, Jul 22, 2011, 6:57 PM UTC

DrewG wrote: post #56

mostapha wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Driving at a high level is one thing. It requires a lot of skill and concentration. Not killing people is completely different: it requires basic skills and some small measure of multi-taking ability. Which is more important, reacting to the car changing lanes without a signal in front of you or finishing your sentence RIGHT NOW ? The problem isn't even skill level. Driving normally at city and highway speeds is easy…

It's not the average drivers that need help, its the bad drivers. The ones who roll through a red light turning right, but look left the entire time, which is a very common way for pedestrians to get hit by cars. The system in the article would probably prevent tons of those accidents. I'm all for taking control away from bad drivers, even if that means we also have to take control away from the average and good driv…

And if they're running through a red light, that means the cross street has a green.

The pedestrian might be in slightly less danger if the car reacts properly. But then the car stops unexpectedly and the driver wonders what happens…and winds up stopped in an intersection for some nonzero amount of time.

Also, unless I'm visualizing this wrong (right turn on red hits a pedestrian in the crosswalk to his right that's parallel to his original direction of travel) the only way the pedestrian would have been in that crosswalk at all is if s/he was crossing against the light and crossing the path of cars going straight on a green.

Re: Toyota automatically stops car before it can hit pedestrian

#60

Post by DrewG » Fri, Jul 22, 2011, 7:16 PM UTC

mostapha wrote: post #59

DrewG wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not the average drivers that need help, its the bad drivers. The ones who roll through a red light turning right, but look left the entire time, which is a very common way for pedestrians to get hit by cars. The system in the article would probably prevent tons of those accidents. I'm all for taking control away from bad drivers, even if that means we also have to take control away from the average and good driv…

And if they're running through a red light, that means the cross street has a green. The pedestrian might be in slightly less danger if the car reacts properly. But then the car stops unexpectedly and the driver wonders what happens…and winds up stopped in an intersection for some nonzero amount of time. Also, unless I'm visualizing this wrong (right turn on red hits a pedestrian in the crosswalk to his right that's…

The ped is travelling perpendicular to the original direction of the car (crossing from right to left from the cars point of view) and is most likely just stepping off the sidewalk.