Live data from Hacker News

A crucial idea for silicon PV cells was excluded by a patent for 20 years

theconversation.com

41–50 of 86 posts

Re: A crucial idea for silicon PV cells was excluded by a patent for 20 years

#41
post #3

Same story as with fractal compression algorithms. Patents shouldn't last that long.

I think they should be more expensive too. The government shouldn't give a monopoly for cheap. Maybe $100k fee for first 5 years, with the ability to pay something like $1m to extend another 5 years would be long enough. Maybe $10M for another 5 years, and $100M for another 5 years.

Re: A crucial idea for silicon PV cells was excluded by a patent for 20 years

#42
post #12
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not a lawyer, but have been involved in IP issues. What I've learned is that obviousness is phenomenally difficult to prove.

I'm not talking about proving it in court, I'm asking you to consider it in your own mind. When the problem with boron doping was realized, how long do you think it would have taken everyone to go down that column of the periodic table and use gallium instead? It's not like there was a huge selection of elements to chose from.

I really don't think obviousness is obvious.

Just looking at the field of software process, there are things I've been doing for 20 years that sure seem obvious to me and that I thought would be obvious to everybody else in short order. But here we are and the dominant process approach has gone from "chaotic waterfall" to "chaotic waterfall with Scrum jargon and modestly shorter delivery cycles".

Re: A crucial idea for silicon PV cells was excluded by a patent for 20 years

#43
post #37
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But did the applicants of the patent show a working model? Or did they just patent a bunch of possible improvements in the hope that one of them would lead to a breakthrough?

Random thought to throw out. Value patents based on the amount of work required to come up with them. So patenting some random shower thought is worth what you put into it. And what you can recover in a lawsuit is also tied to that. "Yeah we violated your 'something but on the internet patent' Here's a $50 Home Depot card."

How will you objectively measure "amount of work required to come up with them"? That sounds rather infeasible.

Re: A crucial idea for silicon PV cells was excluded by a patent for 20 years

#45
post #7

I don't love the language. It was patented. It could have been licensed no? The patent holder refused licensing at any price?

It was a completely obvious idea that, when the patent expired, was immediately widely adopted. It's clear in this case that the patent retarded progress rather than promoting it.

Well in that case surely someone would have challenged the patent and got it invalidated.

Re: A crucial idea for silicon PV cells was excluded by a patent for 20 years

#46
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was a completely obvious idea that, when the patent expired, was immediately widely adopted. It's clear in this case that the patent retarded progress rather than promoting it.

Well in that case surely someone would have challenged the patent and got it invalidated.

I don't see how this works out economically. Having the patent invalidated is a public good. Fighting a patent in court is expensive and risky. Why should any particular company fight a patent for the benefit of its competitors, and against some decently-well-funded conglomerate, when it's already trying to make it in a competitive field?

Re: A crucial idea for silicon PV cells was excluded by a patent for 20 years

#48
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything is obvious once you know the secret. This went under patent protection in 2000, which is decades into the hunt for PV improvements and decades into gallium doping silicon substrate (which started in the 50s at the dawn of transistors.) Papers from the early 2000s talk about this improvement and about open questions regarding the cell lifetime and mixing gallium and germanium ratios, so it does not appear t…

Everything is obvious once you know the secret. Man, I hate this argument. A secret is a secret because it's not obvious. If something is naturally likely to be invented by the first person who happens to encounter the problem it solves, it's not a "secret." That seems to have been what happened here. Society does not benefit from granting a government-enforced 20-year monopoly on things like this. In fact, the cost…

Since both gallium doping and PV panels predate this patent application by several decades I think that it is incredibly ignorant to think that this was obvious. Like a magic trick, once you know the secret it appears obvious, but until someone shows you or tells you how it works you have no chance of figuring it out. This whole 'anyone would have eventually figured it out' argument is the equivalent of saying 'draw the rest of the damn owl'; if it could have been done as easily as you suggest then it would have been done earlier.

Gallium (as GaAs) was being used in solar cells in the mid 60s. A quick search finds papers from the late 70s describing different effects of boron and gallium doping of silicon for solar cells to extend the life of satellites (the effect of the patent in question is to extend the working lifetime of panels so that solar radiation does not damage the panel.) So apparently this was so obvious that the first person who happened to encounter it missed it. It was then missed over and over and over again for at least 20 years and possibly 35.

Yeah, definitely something "likely to be invented by the first person who happens to encounter the problem it solves"...

Re: A crucial idea for silicon PV cells was excluded by a patent for 20 years

#49
post #8
post #4

There was no reason solar cell makers couldn't license the patent from the owner.

Such a claim is naive. While I know nothing about this specific patent of the Japanese company Shin-Etsu, when a patent is owned by a very large manufacturer like this, they very seldom want to make money by licensing the patent but they use it to exclude any competitors. This is done by either refusing to license the patent, or more likely by requesting royalties so large that the products made by any other company…

Not license and not produce ones of their own?

Re: A crucial idea for silicon PV cells was excluded by a patent for 20 years

#50
post #41
post #3

Same story as with fractal compression algorithms. Patents shouldn't last that long.

I think they should be more expensive too. The government shouldn't give a monopoly for cheap. Maybe $100k fee for first 5 years, with the ability to pay something like $1m to extend another 5 years would be long enough. Maybe $10M for another 5 years, and $100M for another 5 years.

Just pay a fixed % gross income to the patent owner.
Post reply on HN