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Is Norway the New East India Company?

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Re: Is Norway the New East India Company?

#51

Post by coldtea »

opinion-is-bad wrote: post #43
okareaman wrote: post #21

> Moreover, the government has recently decided to expand exploration and production of gas and oil in one of the areas that the very same government acknowledges are most sensitive to climate change — the Arctic Circle. I believe this is the most egregious charge in the article, which turns out to be true https://europeangreens.eu/news/norway-opens-arctic-more-dril...

This is what bothers me about Norway. They have become rich by harvesting abundant natural resources, and now spend that money to try and stop other countries from exploiting their own. It seems hypocritical to me, especially because they present it as being altruistic when they shame poor countries for trying to provide for their people.

What major superpower does that remind me of...

Re: Is Norway the New East India Company?

#52

Post by eru »

likecarter wrote: post #38
mikelward wrote: post #14

The United States is the world's largest producer. Canada is about fourth. Norway is about 11th. The United Kingdom is about 17th. The "Western world" accounts for a bit over 25% of the world's total production. If they all banded together to stop domestic oil production, that could have a big impact. But maybe other countries would just increase production? And maybe higher prices would spur more exploration? I don'…

Spot on. Production cuts would actually lead to more countries with unscrupulous leaders ramping up their own production. We need to focus on consumption. I.e. moving to other sources.

I'm not sure it's that easy: if you just reduce consumption but don't touch production, someone with less scruples than you can buy (slightly) cheaper oil and use it.

I guess the big deal is to come up with alternatives that can compete on cost with oil?

Re: Is Norway the New East India Company?

#53

Post by Robotbeat »

coldtea wrote: post #48
okareaman wrote: post #21

> Moreover, the government has recently decided to expand exploration and production of gas and oil in one of the areas that the very same government acknowledges are most sensitive to climate change — the Arctic Circle. I believe this is the most egregious charge in the article, which turns out to be true https://europeangreens.eu/news/norway-opens-arctic-more-dril...

It's also a non sequitur. The Arctic Circle being "most sensitive to climate change", doesn't mean drilling for gas and oil in the Article Circle is a cause or any significant factor to this sensitivity (over drilling anywhere else). In other words: (1) oil and gas can cause/contribute to climate change (2) The Article Circle might be most sensitive to climate change (3) Drilling for gas and oil and thus increasing p…

That’s sort of true. The point was imprecise, but the Arctic is also sensitive to oil spills and is dangerous to operate in.

Re: Is Norway the New East India Company?

#54

Post by wizzwizz4 »

Robotbeat wrote: post #37
paulddraper wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This article is so quick to blame a national government when the problem is squarely on oil and gas companies. Is this the first time you've heard of Norway? It's one and the same. Statoil is majority owned by the Norwegian government.

Yeah, this is a big problem I have with a lot of left wing climate criticism: they blame capitalism for climate change as if nationalizing the industry would make any difference. If anything, having the companies be privately owned puts extra barriers between the companies and the regulators, reducing (in theory, at least) the odds of regulatory capture. (Which isn’t to say the right wing kind of ignoring or blatantl…

Pedantic note: nationalising an industry doesn't always affect the incentives that result from capitalism. Sometimes it does (because it has to deal with the externalities, so the government would lose out if it kept the industry behaving like that), but in cases where the harm is international and the benefit is national, the incentives are the same.

(Yes, I understand that these particular incentives result from any situation of competition for resources, and aren't inherently related to the economic system. However, the point is more general.)

Re: Is Norway the New East India Company?

#55

Post by sgpl »

clucas wrote: post #23

I think getting off of fossil fuels should be a worldwide priority, and expanding fossil fuel exploration is a bad way to spend our time and effort as a species. But I don't understand this line: > Moreover, the government has recently decided to expand exploration and production of gas and oil in one of the areas that the very same government acknowledges are most sensitive to climate change—the Arctic Circle. My un…

I think what you're missing is that oil extraction doesn't happen in a vacuum. The externalities of extracting oil from the arctic circle would be massively detrimental to the local environment. Not to mention the fact that any accidental oil spill or a well blowout would wreck havoc on the biodiversity and local species in the region mostly because according to the consensus opinion of many scientists, "we do not have the technology, nor the infrastructure, to deal with the specific challenges of a disaster in this region."

Here's a list [1] of a few other reasons on why this is a bad idea.

[1] https://www.greenpeace.org/usa/top-10-reasons-why-arctic-oil...

Re: Is Norway the New East India Company?

#56

Post by varjag »

maCDzP wrote: post #19
teslafire124 wrote: post #6

This article is so quick to blame a national government when the problem is squarely on oil and gas companies. It's not like the oil and gas industries haven't lobbied for decades to cover up climate change evidence so that the world would remain dependent on them. They are the ones who ensure that the biggest polluting nations enact any kind of significant climate change reform.

If I am not mistaken the oil company in Norway - Statoil - is owned by the government. But I guess the argument regarding lobbying still holds.

Equinor (formerly Statoil) is only one of operators, although all of them are taxed by the state. And while two thirds of Equinor's equity are held by the state, it's a public company.

https://www.norskpetroleum.no/en/facts/companies-production-...

Re: Is Norway the New East India Company?

#57

Post by nautilius »

lenkite wrote: post #39
mikelward wrote: post #14

The United States is the world's largest producer. Canada is about fourth. Norway is about 11th. The United Kingdom is about 17th. The "Western world" accounts for a bit over 25% of the world's total production. If they all banded together to stop domestic oil production, that could have a big impact. But maybe other countries would just increase production? And maybe higher prices would spur more exploration? I don'…

How would you cope with food prices rising 10x in cost ? And the famines ? And the breakdown of law and order accompanied with the failure of most industry and the military. ? Please propose a solution along with your oil-ban utopia.

Ah yeah, who doesn’t remember the infamous famines and the collapse of police and industry in the U.S. during the oil crisis in the 70s.

Re: Is Norway the New East India Company?

#59

Post by eru »

Robotbeat wrote: post #50
lenkite wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would you cope with food prices rising 10x in cost ? And the famines ? And the breakdown of law and order accompanied with the failure of most industry and the military. ? Please propose a solution along with your oil-ban utopia.

Why would food costs increase 10x? It’s not particularly hard to make ammonia fertilizer with renewables. Ammonia is made using hydrogen already (not fossil fuels directly, as is mistakenly believed by many), it’s just that usually that comes from natural gas. The price of ammonia might increase a bit in the near term as we make it with clean hydrogen, but it wouldn’t increase food prices 10x. Secondly, electric trac…

Also: the world isn't particularly efficient with energy input in agriculture, because we don't have to be.

If oil prices were to rise a lot, people would find all kinds of ways to economize and substitute. Especially in the longer run.

And, of course, if food becomes expensive enough, many people would switch away from eating expensive meat towards more and cheaper plants.

That's an economic statement, but also a statement in terms of energy costs.

Re: Is Norway the New East India Company?

#60

Post by pps »

opinion-is-bad wrote: post #43
okareaman wrote: post #21

> Moreover, the government has recently decided to expand exploration and production of gas and oil in one of the areas that the very same government acknowledges are most sensitive to climate change — the Arctic Circle. I believe this is the most egregious charge in the article, which turns out to be true https://europeangreens.eu/news/norway-opens-arctic-more-dril...

This is what bothers me about Norway. They have become rich by harvesting abundant natural resources, and now spend that money to try and stop other countries from exploiting their own. It seems hypocritical to me, especially because they present it as being altruistic when they shame poor countries for trying to provide for their people.

I live in Poland, our government love coal ("our black gold" as they call it) and I never heard anything from Norwegian government about this. I don't listen/watch our government radios/tv, so the message should come to me as any other related to climate catastrophe. I'm not saying that you're lying or anything, but I would love to see some examples of this shaming.
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