Twitter tests Reddit-style upvote and downvote buttons • Hacker News Board

Re: Twitter tests Reddit-style upvote and downvote buttons

#381

Post by kaba0 » Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 7:51 AM UTC

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #192

oldsecondhand wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"am I the asshole" and idiotsincars are pretty normal places where people can politely disagree; MurderedByWords and Politics are political echochambers and that territory brings a bit of toxicity like black-and-white thinking, but I would only call "justiceserved" particularly toxic.

>am I the asshole" and idiotsincars are pretty normal places where people can politely disagree These places are echo chambners too you just don't realize it because you agree with the echo. Go on I am the asshole and give even the slightest hint of approval for a parent that's parenting in a traditional manner (e.g. approving of a "my house my rules" attitude toward an older teenager) and you'll get all sorts of hat…

There are visceral reactions (I’m pretty sure you can catch yourself doing the same from time to time as well), but my opinion/experience is that well-meaning and well-explained comments are well-received in most of the not-completely echo-chamber subreddits.

Re: Twitter tests Reddit-style upvote and downvote buttons

#382

Post by alpaca128 » Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 7:54 AM UTC

useragent86 wrote: post #332

IanCal wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there's two ways it can go, I don't know which was the case here but I can understand them being treated differently if this is what happened: * Upvoting comments because you think they are good comments, regardless of whether they are downvoted or not * Voting more for things that are downvoted than things that aren't, because you think the downvoting is unfair The former is just adding your vote to the pool…

> The latter is deliberately trying to undo other votes, distorting the system. That's begging the question: What is distortion in the system? Isn't a system with both upvoting and downvoting one designed around everyone trying to undo others' votes? What if the first 5 people to see a comment hate it and downvote it, and then the 6th person likes it and upvotes it: should the 6th person not be allowed to vote anymor…

Agreed. In the early stages "correction" of the overall score is still possible, and it does happen that the initial votes don't reflect the sentiment of the community at all.

But that said maybe this system only flags a user when it's done too excessively. On average I'd say most users upvote mainly positive or neutral comments, after all downvoted comments are often downvoted for a reason and also make up the minority. If a user however upvotes more negative comments than positive ones that is at least unusual.

Re: Twitter tests Reddit-style upvote and downvote buttons

#383

Post by Tainnor » Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 9:04 AM UTC

sigotirandolas wrote: post #294

Tainnor wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not super active on reddit, but I do frequent (mostly as a lurker) some subreddits from time to time, such as r/math, r/learnjapanese, r/history etc. I don't remember running into any sort of heated political argument in any of these subreddits. Of course, for other subreddits it might be different, but this is my experience.

I do: https://old.reddit.com/r/LearnJapanese/comments/gwo4o7/in_so... https://old.reddit.com/r/math/comments/gw4uca/rmath_will_be_... https://old.reddit.com/r/history/comments/gvsvq8/rhistory_is...

Well you're free to think whatever you want about BLM, but some sort of protest or statement was happening all over the world both in on- and offline communities, so you're not really singling out Reddit here, this is just an instance of a general trend.

Plus, my statement was about "heated political arguments", not a one-time statement from moderators which remains, to my understanding, rather rare. One thread about BLM doesn't deter me from visiting these subreddits.

Re: Twitter tests Reddit-style upvote and downvote buttons

#384

Post by Blikkentrekker » Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 9:21 AM UTC

intended wrote: post #323

Blikkentrekker wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was solved long ere that: no votes. There are many boards were ranking is simply decided by recent activity of replies. I find that DeviantArt has the ideal forum: a tree-based structure like Reddit , and H.N. , and the top comment within a branch of the tree is simply the one which had the most recent reply to a child recursively, and any new replies always end up at the top. This achieves two important goals: 1)…

Content will always find a grey area that your rules don’t cover.

And votes stop that issue?

If the grey area be popular enough with the voters, then it will simply be upvoted. The post you replied to is downvoted. It is not in any grey area of guidelines; it is simply a post that two more people disagreed with than agreed with.

Re: Twitter tests Reddit-style upvote and downvote buttons

#385

Post by wildsatchmo » Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 9:02 PM UTC

endisneigh wrote: post #11

I think up and down voting are great, however what is dumb is that neither has a cost. If you think of karma as an economy, taking an action should have a cost. Of course this leads to the question: if voting has a cost, then how do people accumulate irrespective of themselves receiving a vote? You could give everyone say, a fixed number of karma to begin with that could then be allocated. You can then give people mo…

Twetch is an experiment in exactly this. Pay to like, comment, "branch" as they call it (retweet). pow.market is another fascinating experiment using proof of work as the currency that could be integrated into these platforms. ctzn.network is another take but no payments going on there. "Karma as a token" is what I think of based on your description and it's really cool. I think in the next couple of years there will be a lot more experimentation in this area too. It's a perfect storm of censorship, bots, and fake news that are encouraging more experiments now. There are others I'm aware of that are not yet public that I'm most excited about though. It's definitely happening.

Re: Twitter tests Reddit-style upvote and downvote buttons

#386

Post by tlavoie » Sat, Jul 24, 2021, 6:47 AM UTC

endisneigh wrote: post #11

I think up and down voting are great, however what is dumb is that neither has a cost. If you think of karma as an economy, taking an action should have a cost. Of course this leads to the question: if voting has a cost, then how do people accumulate irrespective of themselves receiving a vote? You could give everyone say, a fixed number of karma to begin with that could then be allocated. You can then give people mo…

How about meta-moderation, like what is used on Slashdot?

Logged-in users are occasionally asked to apply a few moderation points to comments, but are also subject to their moderation actions being reviewed in turn.

Re: Twitter tests Reddit-style upvote and downvote buttons

#387

Post by Arathorn » Sat, Jul 24, 2021, 9:08 AM UTC

mistermann wrote: post #319

Artistry121 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Matrix and the power of decentralized federated social networks will allow this soon.

Does Matrix support full extensibility of data structures or are you tied to some minimal model?

full extensibility

Re: Twitter tests Reddit-style upvote and downvote buttons

#388

Post by mariusor » Sat, Jul 24, 2021, 9:10 AM UTC

fartcannon wrote: post #341

dmurray wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Didn't Slashdot have multiple dimensions, a post could be "+5, insightful" or "-3, off topic". If you squint you could say the same about emoji reactions on Facebook and probably other platforms, this post got 5 :heart and 2 :scary reactions. They don't have a visible one for relevance but presumably the reactions feed into one behind the scenes. I'm not sure any of these have been shown to be clearly superior to the…

Slashdot still exists. Why did the internet go elsewhere?

I think that at the time when Slashdot slid from mainstream as a discussion platform, the top complaint was that the site's moderators were deciding the posts that got to the front page. Only after Digg and Reddit captured a lot of their original audience, did Slashdot introduce the "firehose" concept, which showed all submissions, before being vetted by the mod team.

Until then the process was that someone would submit a post, someone from the mod team would review (and, maybe edit it) and only then it got to the front page. This, in my opinion, allowed for better quality, despite some of the biases the mod team showed. The community was adamant that it should be in charge of what makes it to the front-page and in this regard Digg and reddit were doing it better, so Slashdot became less and less relevant.

Re: Twitter tests Reddit-style upvote and downvote buttons

#389

Post by mariusor » Sat, Jul 24, 2021, 9:20 AM UTC

wccrawford wrote: post #236

gruez wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>4. meta-moderation: your votes (up/down both) were subject to voting (correct/incorrect). good score == more upvotes to spend. Doesn't this lead to a keynesian beauty contest situation where people are incentized to vote what they think other people would vote, rather than by their own honest assessment?

It's also another kind of echo chamber, where the majority can penalize you for going against the group-think both by downvoting your posts and by providing you with fewer votes.

Yes, but in all fairness, slashdot, unlike reddit had a niche it was pursuing: "tech news". Granted there were meme posts during its heyday too (eg, micro$oft bad) but I think opposing opinions were given way more consideration than similar discussion garner on reddit (or even here, on HN) to this day.

Re: Twitter tests Reddit-style upvote and downvote buttons

#390

Post by aww_dang » Sat, Jul 24, 2021, 10:05 AM UTC

bopbeepboop wrote: post #231

pjc50 wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While HN tried and abandoned the "no politics" rule, it does have a soft "no partisan flamewars" rule and a vague "stay on topic" rule. It bans violators pretty effectively - if you're just starting trouble you won't last long. Also, on HN, you can't reply to people , only to a comment. And it doesn't end up in any inbox. This makes it a lot harder to maintain a longstanding "beef"; we have to do that manually.

You can be on topic and only making calm, cited comments, but get shadowbanned for having sufficiently controversial views. HN is like any other forum which censors certain views for being controversial. Like stating that BLM is a Marxist organization — with a citation to their founders describing it as such. HN relies on your belief that they only ban people “starting trouble” to remove certain topics from conversat…

Depending on your views, you can't directly say what you're thinking about certain topics at HN. You need to dance around the issue. Pose questions, give them rope and allow proponents of those ideals to provide their rationales. Once revealed, you can examine these topics.

Perhaps for those who haven't been down these rabbit holes repeatedly, it appears as assumption. The rationales you see may not have been provided explicitly or scrutinized. It can be a bit long-form and tedious, but it is part of assuming good faith.

Consider how your post above might appear to someone who takes an idealistic view of these activist movements. They might not be aware of the Marxist influences. Even if they are, they might genuinely believe that Marxist movements do not result in centralization of power. It is easy to overlook these points.