“I would buy a Mac today if I was not working at Microsoft” (2004) • Hacker News Board

Re: “I would buy a Mac today if I was not working at Microsoft” (2004)

#171

Post by spideymans » Sat, Jul 24, 2021, 2:31 AM UTC

sushisource wrote: post #84

legitster wrote: post #81

I think it's pretty telling that there are lots of letters like this from Microsoft, but almost none from Apple. I can't imagine someone from Apple writing a letter like this to Jobs and still working at Apple.

I agree, but seemingly that hasn't mattered or helped much? Apple is a more valuable company in terms of market cap, and almost certainly a more 'loved' company in terms of mindshare. Many people thought they'd be doomed without Jobs but they've seemingly been doing just fine still (ignoring many valid criticisms here, of course, but talking about the general population). Which I really find fascinating. Aside from t…

> Is that really all there is to it? The consistency of aesthetic is enough to win? I've always found it to be an interesting question, why they continue to be so successful.

Apple understands that technology is not enough. If you want consumers to want to use your products, you have to get the technology right, and you have to make the product a joy to use.

Most of us in this industry get the technology right, but treat the consumer joy (aka, amazing UX) as completely optional.

Re: “I would buy a Mac today if I was not working at Microsoft” (2004)

#172

Post by microtherion » Sat, Jul 24, 2021, 2:34 AM UTC

legitster wrote: post #81

I think it's pretty telling that there are lots of letters like this from Microsoft, but almost none from Apple. I can't imagine someone from Apple writing a letter like this to Jobs and still working at Apple.

I don't know about writing a letter like this, but actually USING non-Apple products was never a big deal in my recollection. I've never heard of an Apple equivalent of the stories of ostentatious hostility displayed by Microsoft executives toward employees (or their own offspring) daring to privately own/desire Apple products.

Re: “I would buy a Mac today if I was not working at Microsoft” (2004)

#173

Post by Yhippa » Sat, Jul 24, 2021, 2:34 AM UTC

Imnimo wrote: post #80

drcongo wrote: post #42

Back around Vista time I went to watch a talk by one of MS's UI designers about all the time and effort they'd put into designing the Vista interface. He gave a demo showing a walk-through of some set-up "wizard" and talked about all the details he thought were important. At no point did he mention the fact that depending on which screen you were on the "next" and "previous" buttons would swap places with the "cancel…

Sometimes my work-issued Macbook decides that it no longer wants to display an escape key on the touch bar (and there is no physical escape key). People joke about not knowing how to exit vi, but it turns out the game is even harder when your machine takes away your escape key!

Oh wow, this happened to me this week. I had no other option than to shutdown and restart. Super frustrating.

Re: “I would buy a Mac today if I was not working at Microsoft” (2004)

#174

Post by spideymans » Sat, Jul 24, 2021, 2:36 AM UTC

spideymans wrote: post #171

sushisource wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, but seemingly that hasn't mattered or helped much? Apple is a more valuable company in terms of market cap, and almost certainly a more 'loved' company in terms of mindshare. Many people thought they'd be doomed without Jobs but they've seemingly been doing just fine still (ignoring many valid criticisms here, of course, but talking about the general population). Which I really find fascinating. Aside from t…

> Is that really all there is to it? The consistency of aesthetic is enough to win? I've always found it to be an interesting question, why they continue to be so successful. Apple understands that technology is not enough. If you want consumers to want to use your products, you have to get the technology right, and you have to make the product a joy to use. Most of us in this industry get the technology right, but t…

> Most of us in this industry get the technology right, but treat the consumer joy (aka, amazing UX) as completely optional.

Unfortunately our industry is so metric-based, that we’re unwilling to make investments in intangibles like UX.

Re: “I would buy a Mac today if I was not working at Microsoft” (2004)

#175

Post by slumdev » Sat, Jul 24, 2021, 2:38 AM UTC

bluedino wrote: post #166

drcongo wrote: post #42

Back around Vista time I went to watch a talk by one of MS's UI designers about all the time and effort they'd put into designing the Vista interface. He gave a demo showing a walk-through of some set-up "wizard" and talked about all the details he thought were important. At no point did he mention the fact that depending on which screen you were on the "next" and "previous" buttons would swap places with the "cancel…

If you want to see horrible, horrible UX, check out Microsoft 365. Everything is a giant mess, violating every rule in the book. Azure, Exchange, nothing even looks like it’s from the same company.

The Office UI, in general, hasn't improved since 2007 introduced the ribbon. Recent changes to Outlook make it seem like nobody at MS is even thinking about these issues.

Re: “I would buy a Mac today if I was not working at Microsoft” (2004)

#176

Post by canuckintime » Sat, Jul 24, 2021, 2:41 AM UTC

908B64B197 wrote: post #85

legitster wrote: post #81

I think it's pretty telling that there are lots of letters like this from Microsoft, but almost none from Apple. I can't imagine someone from Apple writing a letter like this to Jobs and still working at Apple.

Apple did not have it's internal emails made public and discussed in court. I think the email we're discussing was part of the anti-trust investigation against Microsoft.

Good point. Here's an example:

> Apple executive Eddy Cue sent an email in January 2011 to CEO Tim Cook... “I believe there will be a 7-inch market and we should do one,” Cue wrote in the email, which forwarded an article written by a reporter that switched from the iPad to a 7-inch Samsung tablet. “I tend to agree with many of the comments below,” Cue wrote.

> The email was introduced Friday during Samsung’s cross-examination of iOS chief Scott Forstall, who was among the recipients of Cue’s email. Forstall testified that Cue also used a 7-inch Galaxy Tab at some point... Steve Jobs was an outspoken critic of such tablets, saying that one would only be practical if it came with sandpaper to make people’s fingers smaller.

https://allthingsd.com/20120803/apples-eddy-cue-saw-market-f...

> I expressed this to Steve [Jobs] several times since Thanksgiving and he seemed very receptive the last time

https://www.digitalspy.com/tech/apple/a397538/apples-steve-j...

Re: “I would buy a Mac today if I was not working at Microsoft” (2004)

#177

Post by blackoil » Sat, Jul 24, 2021, 2:44 AM UTC

hdjjhhvvhga wrote: post #58

pjmlp wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apparently Cairo's lesson wasn't good enough, so they ended up rewriting all Longhorn stuff mostly in COM and since it was such a good idea we got WinRT (IInspectable + .NET metadata) as "improvement". Which kind of was, had the respective teams not botched the whole idea with WinRT, UAP, UWP, replacing C++/CX with toolless C++/WinRT, left .NET Native stagnate,.... So now we get WinUI, Reunion sorry AppSDK, and the w…

Yeah, what I liked about the 90s you basically got MFC and it was basically it, you could create any desktop app and only waited for incremental upgrades. MFC was supported by Borland and Symantec, so basically whatever you choose you could quickly create a Windows GUI app. What I dislike about the current situation is the lack of certainty as to which toolkit I should invest my time in as I'm sure someone at Microso…

Practical reasons why Electron is winning. A universal base framework and language. Choice of popular development framework, UI and other libraries and million of developers.

Re: “I would buy a Mac today if I was not working at Microsoft” (2004)

#178

Post by thaumasiotes » Sat, Jul 24, 2021, 2:44 AM UTC

stavros wrote: post #126

thaumasiotes wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you change your username? I didn't realize that was an option.

Yes I did, and it probably wasn't really an option, but the moderators were kind enough to reclaim a very old, unused username (which I think was mine but forgot all the credentials to).

What made you want to change it?

Re: “I would buy a Mac today if I was not working at Microsoft” (2004)

#179

Post by MeinBlutIstBlau » Sat, Jul 24, 2021, 2:44 AM UTC

drcongo wrote: post #42

Back around Vista time I went to watch a talk by one of MS's UI designers about all the time and effort they'd put into designing the Vista interface. He gave a demo showing a walk-through of some set-up "wizard" and talked about all the details he thought were important. At no point did he mention the fact that depending on which screen you were on the "next" and "previous" buttons would swap places with the "cancel…

Not to mention by default assuming an executable download outside of the appstore must be malicious so you have to jump through red tape just to enable it. It's like they assume all their users are just morons and can't be trusted.

Re: “I would buy a Mac today if I was not working at Microsoft” (2004)

#180

Post by MeinBlutIstBlau » Sat, Jul 24, 2021, 2:48 AM UTC

robertoandred wrote: post #153

jamesbfb wrote: post #143

I recently saved an old (2012) Mac Pro from the trash at work. As a lockdown project, I decided to do the rejuvenate the thing, thing. Cleaned it up, wiped and put a fresh copy of High Sierra on it. I am a long time Linux guy and I was pleasantly surprised. It’s almost fun to use! That said, I believe High Sierra is the last release before things start getting...weird? My wife has a newer Mac (cannot remember the rel…

To open unsigned software, right click, click Open, and click Open on the dialog that pops up. That’s for High Sierra and newer releases.

It's still annoying. Apple needs to realize, it's my machine, and I'll take whatever risks I want. Stop trying to police me as though I'm incompetent. I know full well at this point if some random executable is going to be sketchy and it's wholly on me if I run it. It's just a push to go to the app store, while convenient, it most certainly is not for developers who don't want to deal with their BS to maintain a presence there.