Why is the university of California dropping the SAT? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#311

Post by 908B64B197 » Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 9:07 PM UTC

an_opabinia wrote: post #225

908B64B197 wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Replacing the SAT by a "Holistic" process is a convenient way to impose a quota on some groups judged problematic. To directly quote the article: "There is only one group of students who are “overrepresented,” to use the chilling language of social engineering, at the university: Asian Americans. Twelve percent of K–12 students are Asian or Pacific Islander, compared with 34 percent of UC undergraduates. Aligning enr…

No one ethnic group owns the schools.

Framing the issue as one "foreign" group "taking over" the school is interesting.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_foreigner

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

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Post by rejectedandsad » Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 9:07 PM UTC

harmegido wrote: post #302

rejectedandsad wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All the best colleagues I've worked with aced the SAT and/or other standardized tests I did not do well on my SATs (1500/1600) - do you think there's any way to make up for this? Or am I supposed to be as unimpressive as I was at 17 forever?

I believe 1500/1600 is top 2%, so it's weird you'd consider that not "well" to me.

It’s not good enough to get into any top school, and top 2% is simply not good enough when it’s effectively the same as the top 20%.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

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Post by austincheney » Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 9:08 PM UTC

ethbr0 wrote: post #71

usaar333 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's top 7% now and it has a holistic system to handle students outside that cohort. The reason this exists is that it's effectively an affirmative action program for both urban segregated schools and rural schools, which combined have enough political power to pull this off. I believe political dynamics in CA wouldn't allow for this to be constructed - note that suburbs in general fight against such policies. UT its…

> reducing its rank Do universities exist for students? Or do students exist for universities? I'm sure university administration believe the latter, but given that they're supported by the state (in UT's case, ~25% of their budget?) there's a pretty strong argument that they owe the people of the state education.

If you consume media or follow university rankings they exist only for prestige, whatever that is.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

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Post by ypzhang2 » Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 9:08 PM UTC

BitwiseFool wrote: post #99

ethbr0 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> reducing its rank Do universities exist for students? Or do students exist for universities? I'm sure university administration believe the latter, but given that they're supported by the state (in UT's case, ~25% of their budget?) there's a pretty strong argument that they owe the people of the state education.

University Presidents and Trustees have this bizarre fixation on rankings. I have no clue why, especially considering the fact that that composition of the top 100 is fairly stable. Rarely does a university experience a big swing, up or down. Most universities are never going to dethrone the top 20, no matter how hard they try. And it's not like they are in desperate need for enrollment either.

It’s not really bizarre at all. Parents and therefore students care about rankings, and it directly leads to enrollment, donations, and talent attraction. There might not be changes in overall rankings but individual college or program rankings do change substantially.

The administration will all profess a desire not to be so beholden but it’s part of the game so to speak, you have to play.

Source: current board member of a public university college

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

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Post by mochomocha » Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 9:09 PM UTC

pfisherman wrote: post #15

I think the University of Texas has one of simplest and most egalitarian admissions policies that I have seen. If you graduate in the top 10 percent of your class, then you are guaranteed admission to all state funded universities. As a Californian I find it quite ironic that many policies in “conservative” Texas (ex. university admissions, property tax, income tax) are more much more progressive than what we have in…

As mentioned below, this is also how the UCs are doing admissions. You can look at the data for yourself here: https://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/infocenter/admissions... You'll find out that there's a ~5-10% acceptance rate per high school.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

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Post by corlinp » Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 9:09 PM UTC

LorenPechtel wrote: post #129

tornato7 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean like, read the student's application and use critical thinking to evaluate whether they're a good fit for the school based on their essays and individual accomplishments? Say it ain't so!

In other words, use subjective criteria that allow them to slip discrimination in under the radar.

When you admit as many students as a UC, you can easily run regressions to determine whether a particular admissions officer is being discriminatory. They should also be able to anonymize applicants pretty well.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

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Post by visarga » Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 9:10 PM UTC

kart23 wrote: post #295

The article makes no mention of the lawsuit that was brought against the UC system. They ended up settling, with the UC system agreeing to stop using the SAT for the next 5 years. I think the lawsuit had a lot more influence on the decision than most people think. https://www.sfchronicle.com/education/article/Judge-bars-Uni... https://www.sfchronicle.com/local/article/UC-settles-student...

If the test is unfair they should demand more support for preparation rather than removing the test.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

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Post by SuoDuanDao » Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 9:10 PM UTC

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #292

SuoDuanDao wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a decent argument to be made that standardized tests distort the education system by making good test results the goal of teaching and attending class, rather than learning whatever the class is supposed to teach. To put it differently, it's not comparing students on the basis of tests that's the problem, it's what those tests cause the students and teachers to do in the year leading up to them. I used to be…

Can't the tests be made to reflect the whole subjects? For example have the math test cover everything that high school math programmes are supposed to teach, so there's no way to prepare for the test, except to actually teach the whole subject? For example, our general high schools ("gymnasiums") have predefined lists of topics, that sudents will learn there, and the standardized tests basically cover everything. Ho…

One needs to learn derivatives at least in the form they'll be on the test. A lot of high school teachers I had were familiar enough with sorts of questions on the standardized tests their classes would be taking that they taught these subjects with an artificially narrow focus, in order to boost our grades compared to other schools. Of course, teachers at those schools no doubt did the same. The result is that a lot of people who studied eg. derivatives would be much less able to apply that knowledge in any environment except the standardised test.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

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Post by rhino369 » Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 9:10 PM UTC

throwaway284534 wrote: post #35

All this gnashing over test scores and booster programs is just showboating. If states really want to fix poor schools they should make school funding occur at the state level, rather than whichever random zip code you’re born into. Seriously, you can’t justify a wealthier neighborhood being entitled to better schools when they’re public institutions receiving state and federal funds. Evening out this funding is the…

While too little funding is an issue, once you hit a baseline the issue is no longer funding.

The rich neighborhoods (and working class neighborhoods that value education) have better schools because their kids are on average better students. They make sure of it and set high expectations.

Nobody believes that you if you just funded Northeastern Illinois State University the same as Northwestern that the student outcomes would be the same. Why do we think the same thing doesn't apply in elementary and high school.

Want to fix the problem? School vouchers at the statewide level.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

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Post by hindsightbias » Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 9:10 PM UTC

honkycat wrote: post #231

gotoeleven wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a bizarre canard that people keep running with. You can prep for the SAT but it adds 20-30 points at most. So mostly you can't prep for it. You certainly can't buy a high score. College sports is a racket though for sure.

So personalized tutoring does nothing to improve your score? What an absurd suggestion. That USED to be line line but it has since changed: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/answer-sheet/wp/2017/05/...

I didn't know Khan Academy was elitist, expensive or personalized.

No amount of expensive tutors is going to help a rich kid on the SAT unless they really do all the work.