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Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

theatlantic.com

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Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#221

Post by andreilys »

bayesian_horse wrote: post #216
fortran77 wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The linked article may give you another point of view.

It didn't. The author seems to have a gut-felt conviction that there is no bias or damage in standardized testing or its subsequent use for university admissions.

The problem is that every approach to university admissions will be flawed.

Personally I think there should be a lottery system after a certain grade/extracurricular cut-off. The difference at a certain point between students is negligible and a lottery system would help alleviate some bias. Of course there's plenty of things wrong with this approach as well, you're never going to find something that pleases everyone.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#222

Post by gotoeleven »

sjg007 wrote: post #198
fridif wrote: post #192

Don't understand the hate for the SAT. Where I went to school, students would just beg their teachers for better grades and it literally worked. I did average on my SAT compared to my ex-gf in college (top 30 US school) but I ran a 3.8 in college compared to her being a C student. Doesn't matter anyway because none of the stuff I learned in college is used in my daily job as a java developer.

The SAT is basically institutionalized racism. I think this has been well studied, from its origins until today. If you have the means and money you can get tutored test prep and do significantly better than you would otherwise. Next on this list will be scholarships and admissions for elite sports. Rowing and gymnastics all favor the wealthy. https://www.insidehighered.com/admissions/views/2020/08/17/h... Maybe we n…

This is a bizarre canard that people keep running with. You can prep for the SAT but it adds 20-30 points at most. So mostly you can't prep for it. You certainly can't buy a high score.

College sports is a racket though for sure.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#223

Post by bilbo0s »

jacobolus wrote: post #215
jeffbee wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aside from quantization errors for high school classes with fewer than 16 students, why would it be easier to get the top 6% in a rural school?

Because on average the children of urban/suburban professionals have more academic support, higher expectations placed on them, and more competition, and as a result end up with more academic practice/preparation, compared to rural or working-class children.

I think he's saying if you're in a bad urban school, it's hard to see how you're any less likely to be in the top 6% than if you're in a bad rural school given the same academic abilities. (Academic abilities which don't always need to be very highly developed.)

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#224

Post by UncleMeat »

zozbot234 wrote: post #126
justaman wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The left doesn't like a black man with right-wing ideas so he doesn't appear in mainstream avenues which are typically moderated by the left.

Sowell doesn't advocate for "right-wing" ideas. He's a moderate classical liberal, which is generally described as a centrist position.

> He's a moderate classical liberal, which is generally described as a centrist position.

Organizations like the Hoover love to present this as such, but there is a reason why the departments just 100 or so feet away don't interface with them - and it isn't because they are centrists.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#225

Post by an_opabinia »

908B64B197 wrote: post #207
fridif wrote: post #192

Don't understand the hate for the SAT. Where I went to school, students would just beg their teachers for better grades and it literally worked. I did average on my SAT compared to my ex-gf in college (top 30 US school) but I ran a 3.8 in college compared to her being a C student. Doesn't matter anyway because none of the stuff I learned in college is used in my daily job as a java developer.

Replacing the SAT by a "Holistic" process is a convenient way to impose a quota on some groups judged problematic. To directly quote the article: "There is only one group of students who are “overrepresented,” to use the chilling language of social engineering, at the university: Asian Americans. Twelve percent of K–12 students are Asian or Pacific Islander, compared with 34 percent of UC undergraduates. Aligning enr…

No one ethnic group owns the schools.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#226

Post by honiti »

Any objective measure like the SAT is bad because it is dominated by Asians who the State has deemed undesirable and unworthy of this dominance. They tried changing the objective measures but it didn’t work, they could do Harvard admissions by 100 meter sprint times and Asians would still find a way to dominate. So they need to remove objective criteria as they are roadblocks to ethnically cleaning their universities of Asians.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#227

Post by thereare5lights »

an_opabinia wrote: post #225
908B64B197 wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Replacing the SAT by a "Holistic" process is a convenient way to impose a quota on some groups judged problematic. To directly quote the article: "There is only one group of students who are “overrepresented,” to use the chilling language of social engineering, at the university: Asian Americans. Twelve percent of K–12 students are Asian or Pacific Islander, compared with 34 percent of UC undergraduates. Aligning enr…

No one ethnic group owns the schools.

Red herring or strawman.

No one asserted that

In fact, the person you responded was asserting that this course of action is meant to deny access to members of certain groups because of their membership in a group, not that they are entitled to access because of their membership in a group.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#228

Post by briefcomment »

908B64B197 wrote: post #207
fridif wrote: post #192

Don't understand the hate for the SAT. Where I went to school, students would just beg their teachers for better grades and it literally worked. I did average on my SAT compared to my ex-gf in college (top 30 US school) but I ran a 3.8 in college compared to her being a C student. Doesn't matter anyway because none of the stuff I learned in college is used in my daily job as a java developer.

Replacing the SAT by a "Holistic" process is a convenient way to impose a quota on some groups judged problematic. To directly quote the article: "There is only one group of students who are “overrepresented,” to use the chilling language of social engineering, at the university: Asian Americans. Twelve percent of K–12 students are Asian or Pacific Islander, compared with 34 percent of UC undergraduates. Aligning enr…

All the best colleagues I've worked with aced the SAT and/or other standardized tests. I would hate to not be able to refer to them while interviewing job candidates.

Honestly, standardized test scores and some case study type questions would be sufficient to make a decision (along with 1 on 1 convos). I hope a decision like this opens a channel for smart people to get to employment without having to go to school or spend as much time in it.

Edit:

Some people are commenting that relying on scores from years ago can unfairly disadvantage people who have improved since then, and can generally be misleading. I agree with that.

There should be a robust ecosystem of aptitude tests that are generally accepted, are as unbiased (culturally) as possible, and that can be retaken at any time.

I think it's developing, as I've seen some examples of this in the hiring process.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#229

Post by bayesian_horse »

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #213
duxup wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a lot of the meme form of 'conservative' and 'liberal' concepts OFTEN don't fit if you define it by politics or a state policy... especially any policy as time goes on. A state government might have a very liberal or conservative party in power ... and a given policy might be considered the opposite, but they're not going to revisit it all the time. The reasons for the policy too might have nothing to do with…

TBF, I think when OP was talking about "conservative" vs "liberal" s/he was more less talking about progressive vs regressive systems. A regressive system takes away from those that don't have much to give to people that already have a lot. In this way - a blanket statement of guaranteeing the top x% of students admission into state schools is - I would argue fair and reasonable - but I would also argue is regressive…

Affirmative action is a shortcut, but sometimes the shortcut is the only way to make any progress.

There may be a few very large issues, but also a gazillion small factors that make up systemic discrimination, both racially and against women. It is impossible for minorities to fight those individually, especially not from a position of weakness. It is more effective to counter at least a small part of the net discriminative effect by relatively simple quotas.

And usually those policies don't make up the balance anyway.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#230

Post by thereare5lights »

bayesian_horse wrote: post #216
fortran77 wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The linked article may give you another point of view.

It didn't. The author seems to have a gut-felt conviction that there is no bias or damage in standardized testing or its subsequent use for university admissions.

Did you even read the article?

> How do I know all of this? Because unlike the regents, who enthusiastically voted to eliminate the tests for the first time in 2020, I did not ignore the findings of a 225-page report that was prepared for them at the request of the UC’s then-president, Janet Napolitano. This report[1], by the Academic Council’s Standardized Testing Task Force, was based on years of UC admissions data and was the product of a tremendous amount of work by a formidable team of experts in statistics, medicine, law, philosophy, neuroscience, education, anthropology, and admissions.

> The scholars determined that the obvious challenges faced by low-income Black and Latino students were poverty and poor K–12 education. And they found that the UC’s use of standardized tests did not amplify racial disparities. They agreed that the university should continue using test scores in admissions, but recommended that the UC begin developing its own test, which would be designed to meet the needs of both students and the institution.

[1] https://senate.universityofcalifornia.edu/_files/committees/...

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