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Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

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Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#211

Post by [deleted] »

sjg007 wrote: post #198
fridif wrote: post #192

Don't understand the hate for the SAT. Where I went to school, students would just beg their teachers for better grades and it literally worked. I did average on my SAT compared to my ex-gf in college (top 30 US school) but I ran a 3.8 in college compared to her being a C student. Doesn't matter anyway because none of the stuff I learned in college is used in my daily job as a java developer.

The SAT is basically institutionalized racism. I think this has been well studied, from its origins until today. If you have the means and money you can get tutored test prep and do significantly better than you would otherwise. Next on this list will be scholarships and admissions for elite sports. Rowing and gymnastics all favor the wealthy. https://www.insidehighered.com/admissions/views/2020/08/17/h... Maybe we n…

[deleted]

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#212

Post by bayesian_horse »

Yes, it would be better if a school system produced racially unbiased test results, rather than abandoning the racially biased tests.

Unfortunately the former is vastly more difficult than the latter. So, while you wait for the school system to catch up, why not stop the system from inflicting some of its worst discriminative damage in the meantime?

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#213

Post by onlyrealcuzzo »

duxup wrote: post #31
pfisherman wrote: post #15

I think the University of Texas has one of simplest and most egalitarian admissions policies that I have seen. If you graduate in the top 10 percent of your class, then you are guaranteed admission to all state funded universities. As a Californian I find it quite ironic that many policies in “conservative” Texas (ex. university admissions, property tax, income tax) are more much more progressive than what we have in…

I think a lot of the meme form of 'conservative' and 'liberal' concepts OFTEN don't fit if you define it by politics or a state policy... especially any policy as time goes on. A state government might have a very liberal or conservative party in power ... and a given policy might be considered the opposite, but they're not going to revisit it all the time. The reasons for the policy too might have nothing to do with…

TBF, I think when OP was talking about "conservative" vs "liberal" s/he was more less talking about progressive vs regressive systems.

A regressive system takes away from those that don't have much to give to people that already have a lot.

In this way - a blanket statement of guaranteeing the top x% of students admission into state schools is - I would argue fair and reasonable - but I would also argue is regressive.

This is assuming the top x% of students come from wealthier & more educated families. It's possible this assumption isn't true.

I think progressive policies would be like those that make it easier for certain groups to get admitted (i.e. harder for other groups). This seems unfair, but if you want change, I don't see how you do it fairly.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#214

Post by bachmeier »

pfisherman wrote: post #15

I think the University of Texas has one of simplest and most egalitarian admissions policies that I have seen. If you graduate in the top 10 percent of your class, then you are guaranteed admission to all state funded universities. As a Californian I find it quite ironic that many policies in “conservative” Texas (ex. university admissions, property tax, income tax) are more much more progressive than what we have in…

> many policies in “conservative” Texas

Just want to point out that the policy you're referring to was put in place while Democrats ran Texas. Historically Texas was a Democratic state, with only eight years of Republican governors from 1874-1995.

> more progressive than what we have in “liberal” California

And also that California was historically a Republican state. For most of the years from 1943-1999, they had a Republican governor.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#215

Post by jacobolus »

jeffbee wrote: post #204
SOLAR_FIELDS wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a Texas resident (born here and also graduated from high school in Texas) and would like to point out that it's not just UT, every state school (the other big ones with a decent amount of competition are Texas Tech and Texas A&M) follows this policy. In actuality, it appears that because the demand is so high for UT they have had to lower the number to 6%: https://news.utexas.edu/key-issues/top-10-percent-law/ T…

Aside from quantization errors for high school classes with fewer than 16 students, why would it be easier to get the top 6% in a rural school?

Because on average the children of urban/suburban professionals have more academic support, higher expectations placed on them, and more competition, and as a result end up with more academic practice/preparation, compared to rural or working-class children.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#216

Post by bayesian_horse »

fortran77 wrote: post #201
sjg007 wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The SAT is basically institutionalized racism. I think this has been well studied, from its origins until today. If you have the means and money you can get tutored test prep and do significantly better than you would otherwise. Next on this list will be scholarships and admissions for elite sports. Rowing and gymnastics all favor the wealthy. https://www.insidehighered.com/admissions/views/2020/08/17/h... Maybe we n…

The linked article may give you another point of view.

It didn't. The author seems to have a gut-felt conviction that there is no bias or damage in standardized testing or its subsequent use for university admissions.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#217

Post by bilbo0s »

SOLAR_FIELDS wrote: post #38
pfisherman wrote: post #15

I think the University of Texas has one of simplest and most egalitarian admissions policies that I have seen. If you graduate in the top 10 percent of your class, then you are guaranteed admission to all state funded universities. As a Californian I find it quite ironic that many policies in “conservative” Texas (ex. university admissions, property tax, income tax) are more much more progressive than what we have in…

I am a Texas resident (born here and also graduated from high school in Texas) and would like to point out that it's not just UT, every state school (the other big ones with a decent amount of competition are Texas Tech and Texas A&M) follows this policy. In actuality, it appears that because the demand is so high for UT they have had to lower the number to 6%: https://news.utexas.edu/key-issues/top-10-percent-law/ T…

I take it you never visited Yates High?

I think you mean if you go to a good school you need to apply yourself. If you live in a rough neighborhood and go to a bad school, it's not really all that difficult. Of course, you have to get through high school, which is not so easy in the rough neighborhoods. But you get the idea.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#218

Post by dietdrb »

jeffbee wrote: post #204
SOLAR_FIELDS wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a Texas resident (born here and also graduated from high school in Texas) and would like to point out that it's not just UT, every state school (the other big ones with a decent amount of competition are Texas Tech and Texas A&M) follows this policy. In actuality, it appears that because the demand is so high for UT they have had to lower the number to 6%: https://news.utexas.edu/key-issues/top-10-percent-law/ T…

Aside from quantization errors for high school classes with fewer than 16 students, why would it be easier to get the top 6% in a rural school?

football

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#219

Post by jeffbee »

jacobolus wrote: post #215
jeffbee wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aside from quantization errors for high school classes with fewer than 16 students, why would it be easier to get the top 6% in a rural school?

Because on average the children of urban/suburban professionals have more academic support, higher expectations placed on them, and more competition, and as a result end up with more academic practice/preparation, compared to rural or working-class children.

You're saying it would be easier if you imported the support and expectations with you? Otherwise I still don't get it. If rural school students as a class are poorly supported and have low expectations, and you are a member of that class, I don't see where your advantage arises.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#220

Post by honkycat »

I went to a RURAL school. My graduating class was 20 people. We didn't really do SAT prep, basically all time was eaten up triaging students who were struggling, and dealing with poorly behaved students. Or the teachers were sometimes completely lazy.

I didn't even know AP classes EXISTED. I got to go home for a work study after my first class senior year because I had taken all of the classes available to me. A lot of my peers weren't so lucky and had to sit in study hall for the entire day. The school was gaming attendance because kids in seats means more money, and with how small the school was every student mattered.

Either way: Not a great place to be as a reasonably intelligent young person with an aptitude for technology. I was so profoundly unprepared for college, I had to work twice as hard to do half the work as everyone else, but I managed to sneak by with never failing a class. ( OK, I failed one statistics class because I walked into the final without a calculator. )

I had to work during the day to support myself and do night classes my Jr and Sr year of school. I have this memory of all of my classmates going to an "Of Montreal" concert, and I really wanted to go, but I didn't have the money to buy the ticket. Or the time, I never went out, I had to spend my free time on the weekends doing my homework.

So yeah, this is a nice gesture. The SAT is easier to study for when you are a product of an achievement driven environment and have mentors to coach you through the process. College is more valuable when you actually have the time and capacity to take advantage of your education and it's opportunities. Same as everything else, there is a massive gulf of education and training between students of wealthy districts, and the rest of us. Personally, I think those of us from the sandlot deserve a swing as well.

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