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If Richard Feynman applied for a job at Microsoft (2002)

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Re: If Richard Feynman applied for a job at Microsoft (2002)

#151

Post by [deleted] »

conjecTech wrote: post #143
okareaman wrote: post #75

How many ping pong balls would it take to fill a 747? Why do you ask? What problem are you trying to solve? We want to understand your thought process I'd think it was stupid to fill a 747 with ping pong balls and think about something else

I don't get the derision for these kinds of problems. And I think it's unlikely Feynman would have found this unhelpful. These are commonly referred to as Fermi problems. Fermi was a physicist of Feynman's generation - they were probably standing together at Trinity when Fermi did the famous yield approximation. The other physicists held this ability in such esteem they gave it a name and remembered him for it. The q…

[deleted]

Re: If Richard Feynman applied for a job at Microsoft (2002)

#152

Post by gorwell »

hoten wrote: post #111
babelfish wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are you talking about?

GP saw an opportunity to be anti-woke and jumped on it. It's what passes for humor in some circles. Jump on a "woke" thing that is clearly ridiculous and no more than 0.001% of people agree with, offer it up as a strawman of PC culture, and use it to ridicule liberals. It's especially egregious here because it has nothing to do with the shared article, unless you consider any conversation on Feynman as a bridge to ta…

It's not to ridicule liberals. I'm a liberal. It's to mock the illiberalism and totalitarianism that is replacing liberalism, and is increasingly flexing its power in our cultural institutions.

Re: If Richard Feynman applied for a job at Microsoft (2002)

#153

Post by prionassembly »

LeifCarrotson wrote: post #55
msravi wrote: post #37

In the same vein: The Barometer Question and Calandra's account https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barometer_question

I'd never seen that before, that's excellent! The original PDF is at https://www.unz.com/PDF/PERIODICAL/SaturdayRev-1968dec21/62/ , which is includes a nice drawing of the student speaking with a building superintendent while holding a barometer, but to say more would be to spoil the punchline. Here is the text: > Angels on a Pin By ALEXANDER CALANDRA SOME time ago, I received a call from a colleague who asked if I w…

Interesting. Unz.com is a radical Right (I wouldn't say extreme-right) wing website...

Re: If Richard Feynman applied for a job at Microsoft (2002)

#154

Post by pklausler »

nickff wrote: post #150
conjecTech wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get the derision for these kinds of problems. And I think it's unlikely Feynman would have found this unhelpful. These are commonly referred to as Fermi problems. Fermi was a physicist of Feynman's generation - they were probably standing together at Trinity when Fermi did the famous yield approximation. The other physicists held this ability in such esteem they gave it a name and remembered him for it. The q…

An interesting little tid-bit: I've read that Feynman was sitting in a truck at Trinity, and I think he was alone. Feynman calculated that the truck's windscreen would absorb enough of the bomb's UV emissions to obviate the need for additional eye protection. The same source (which I cannot currently locate) said that everyone else was wearing welding masks/goggles.

Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman

Highly recommended.

Re: If Richard Feynman applied for a job at Microsoft (2002)

#155

Post by nickff »

memco wrote: post #147
hintymad wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure I buy this type of attack. How is this different from calculating yield of a bomb as Fermi did? It's back-of-envelope calculation that physicists do all the time. Ping Pong in a Boeing is merely a setup with the least context. This is like criticizing a math teacher for asking elementary students to calculate how long it takes to fill a swimming pool when water is flowing in and out of the pool at the sa…

Why use the pool at all if you already have useful examples of inflow and outflow of money or another or the queue at the grocery store? Someone of age to understand flow rates of liquid would likely be able to understand money enough to be able to do the same calculations can’t get the same principles but with a functional analogy instead.

There are an infinite number of variations on the problem; you could also ask about a reservoir with inflows and outflows, or a water tower, or a continuous distillation process. I think the money variant is actually one of the worst, as it evokes no imagery (in an era of largely digital transactions), but I'm not sure the exact question asked really matters.

If someone fights a hypothetical, they're usually being adversarial, confrontational, or just avoiding answering the question, which is useful information in an interview.

Re: If Richard Feynman applied for a job at Microsoft (2002)

#156

Post by mdoms »

nickff wrote: post #150
conjecTech wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get the derision for these kinds of problems. And I think it's unlikely Feynman would have found this unhelpful. These are commonly referred to as Fermi problems. Fermi was a physicist of Feynman's generation - they were probably standing together at Trinity when Fermi did the famous yield approximation. The other physicists held this ability in such esteem they gave it a name and remembered him for it. The q…

An interesting little tid-bit: I've read that Feynman was sitting in a truck at Trinity, and I think he was alone. Feynman calculated that the truck's windscreen would absorb enough of the bomb's UV emissions to obviate the need for additional eye protection. The same source (which I cannot currently locate) said that everyone else was wearing welding masks/goggles.

If he was alone why was "everyone else" wearing goggles?

Re: If Richard Feynman applied for a job at Microsoft (2002)

#157

Post by mabbo »

conjecTech wrote: post #143
okareaman wrote: post #75

How many ping pong balls would it take to fill a 747? Why do you ask? What problem are you trying to solve? We want to understand your thought process I'd think it was stupid to fill a 747 with ping pong balls and think about something else

I don't get the derision for these kinds of problems. And I think it's unlikely Feynman would have found this unhelpful. These are commonly referred to as Fermi problems. Fermi was a physicist of Feynman's generation - they were probably standing together at Trinity when Fermi did the famous yield approximation. The other physicists held this ability in such esteem they gave it a name and remembered him for it. The q…

The 747 ping pong ball estimation problem is a Fermi problem, where the goal is to get the right order of magnitude of the answer. Sure.

But "why are manhole covers round?" is not. It's a stupid "have you ever heard this clever fact" question that's often designed just to figure out if you're clever and/or lucky vs testing actual knowledge and skill.

If your aim in interviewing is to fill the team with people who love being clever then it's a great technique. But in my view, it's better to interview for the skills the job requires.

Re: If Richard Feynman applied for a job at Microsoft (2002)

#158

Post by sjg007 »

hintymad wrote: post #120
okareaman wrote: post #75

How many ping pong balls would it take to fill a 747? Why do you ask? What problem are you trying to solve? We want to understand your thought process I'd think it was stupid to fill a 747 with ping pong balls and think about something else

I'm not sure I buy this type of attack. How is this different from calculating yield of a bomb as Fermi did? It's back-of-envelope calculation that physicists do all the time. Ping Pong in a Boeing is merely a setup with the least context. This is like criticizing a math teacher for asking elementary students to calculate how long it takes to fill a swimming pool when water is flowing in and out of the pool at the sa…

The cylinder being the strongest shape is the most interesting answer.

Re: If Richard Feynman applied for a job at Microsoft (2002)

#159

Post by zinclozenge »

giobox wrote: post #144
derekp7 wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is fine if the question relates to something that the candidate is familiar with. But I have personally never set foot in a 747, much less be able to come up with any estimate of the dimensions in order to estimate volume. Then there is the formula to determine the packing volume of ping pong balls. Just like the question of how much water dumps out of the Amazon river per day. Yes, I can write down a formula wi…

I’ve found in interviews you can just declare your assumptions for the things you don’t know. Ultimately these sorts of job interview questions are designed to evoke a response that can let you demonstrate how you would go about solving/explaining the problem; actually solving it correctly is rarely required or expected. I’d just say having never seen a 747, for purposes of the calculation let’s assume they are 300m…

You would think that ultimately the question is about the thought process. But that usually gets lost and it devolves into a question that gets asked with an expected answer.

Re: If Richard Feynman applied for a job at Microsoft (2002)

#160

Post by RHSeeger »

deanCommie wrote: post #135
okareaman wrote: post #75

How many ping pong balls would it take to fill a 747? Why do you ask? What problem are you trying to solve? We want to understand your thought process I'd think it was stupid to fill a 747 with ping pong balls and think about something else

The real problem with that question isn't that it's stupid. Everyone knows it's stupid, it's testing your ability to come up with an estimate in a domain you're not too familiar with using "napkin math". That's a legitimate skill and asset in software engineering. The real problem is that the ability to come up with a good napkin math estimate for a technical problem doesn't correlate with the ability to actually do…

> The real problem is that the ability to come up with a good napkin math estimate for a technical problem doesn't correlate with the ability to actually do the job to solve the problem.

I don't think this is true at all. There have been many times where I've estimated numbers to come up with a "scale" number ... which was important in other ways. How many servers are we likely to need? How many connections per second are we likely to see? How much memory is this likely to take up. Depending on the context in which you need to know the answer, estimating a value can be extremely useful. It can point you towards the right "group" of solutions that you should consider.

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