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If Richard Feynman applied for a job at Microsoft (2002)

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Re: If Richard Feynman applied for a job at Microsoft (2002)

#111

Post by hoten »

babelfish wrote: post #76
gorwell wrote: post #68

It is rather remarkable how unenlightened and vulgar our interview questions used to be. Manhole is the language of the savage from an age long ago, isn't that something? Thank Ford our omniscient DEI Controllers replaced it with Personhole! As a result our species thrived as never before.

What are you talking about?

GP saw an opportunity to be anti-woke and jumped on it. It's what passes for humor in some circles. Jump on a "woke" thing that is clearly ridiculous and no more than 0.001% of people agree with, offer it up as a strawman of PC culture, and use it to ridicule liberals.

It's especially egregious here because it has nothing to do with the shared article, unless you consider any conversation on Feynman as a bridge to talk about modern political correctness wrt. to Feynman.

Re: If Richard Feynman applied for a job at Microsoft (2002)

#112

Post by v64 »

jfengel wrote: post #82
988747 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For one, it has nothing to do with programming. Also, nothing to do with time management, people skills, or anything else that programmers do on their job.

It's an estimation problem, and programming is full of estimation problems. How many servers will I need? Will I be able to fit this in RAM or do I need an on-disk solution? How long will it take to go from 10 users to 10 million users, and will I be able to scale the design? You don't need the exact value, just a rough order of magnitude. That's the whole point of the big-O notation. A problem like that is lighthear…

If you want to know how many servers I'd need for a task or to discuss memory/space tradeoffs, then ask those questions outright instead of doing this indirect dance. I don't see how the question gives you an advantage when you're being asked to take skills you use and apply them to domains you don't work in that are irrelevant for the job.

The skillset I have that allows me to accurately estimate software projects is based on my knowledge and experience in that domain, and just because I can estimate there doesn't mean I can estimate tennis balls in a building, nor does being able to estimate tennis balls in a building give any indication of ability to estimate software projects.

Anyone that thinks there's some overlap between estimating software problems and estimating how many tennis balls would fit in the Empire State Building is not someone I'd want to work for.

Re: If Richard Feynman applied for a job at Microsoft (2002)

#113

Post by swiley »

tharkun__ wrote: post #96
okareaman wrote: post #75

How many ping pong balls would it take to fill a 747? Why do you ask? What problem are you trying to solve? We want to understand your thought process I'd think it was stupid to fill a 747 with ping pong balls and think about something else

In an interview, stopping at this might just make you not get the job. If you're lucky the interviewer will laugh and ask the appropriate followup question. It goes something like this: Haha, awesome answer. I agree with you from a business perspective it seems stupid at first. Now I can't come up with a good reason to do this, but let's say I as your Product person have convinced you with enough good reasons that it…

Yeah, unfortunately you get asked to do some pretty silly stuff all the time and being able to cope with that is a critical skill.

Re: If Richard Feynman applied for a job at Microsoft (2002)

#114

Post by tester756 »

giantg2 wrote: post #103
rcpt wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know how police have to take an IQ test and get denied the job if they score too high? Like that, but for tech interviews.

I think it's a rare practice right? "... the theory that those who scored too high could get bored with police work and leave soon after undergoing costly training." I must be a genius. I'm sooo bored at my software dev job. https://abcnews.go.com/US/court-oks-barring-high-iqs-cops/st...

or it's time to change job :)

Re: If Richard Feynman applied for a job at Microsoft (2002)

#115

Post by wsc981 »

giantg2 wrote: post #103
rcpt wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know how police have to take an IQ test and get denied the job if they score too high? Like that, but for tech interviews.

I think it's a rare practice right? "... the theory that those who scored too high could get bored with police work and leave soon after undergoing costly training." I must be a genius. I'm sooo bored at my software dev job. https://abcnews.go.com/US/court-oks-barring-high-iqs-cops/st...

Bored like Peter Gibbons?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_1lIFRdnhA

Maybe you need a promotion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=af8DVIZ5LX4

Re: If Richard Feynman applied for a job at Microsoft (2002)

#116

Post by 908B64B197 »

okareaman wrote: post #75

How many ping pong balls would it take to fill a 747? Why do you ask? What problem are you trying to solve? We want to understand your thought process I'd think it was stupid to fill a 747 with ping pong balls and think about something else

> I'd think it was stupid to fill a 747 with ping pong balls and think about something else

This man never heard of a Fermi estimate, or encountered one in a problem set.

Re: If Richard Feynman applied for a job at Microsoft (2002)

#117

Post by extr »

thom wrote: post #8
cableshaft wrote: post #3

I was expecting something a little different, where they passed on him because he didn't give the 'right' answer (what the interviewer had preconceived and/or looked up online).

Well, that _is_ the conceit here. The ‘right’ answer is that all manhole covers are round because a round cover can’t fall into the hole.

Manhole covers are round so you can move them by rolling them around. Duh

Re: If Richard Feynman applied for a job at Microsoft (2002)

#118

Post by jfengel »

v64 wrote: post #112
jfengel wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's an estimation problem, and programming is full of estimation problems. How many servers will I need? Will I be able to fit this in RAM or do I need an on-disk solution? How long will it take to go from 10 users to 10 million users, and will I be able to scale the design? You don't need the exact value, just a rough order of magnitude. That's the whole point of the big-O notation. A problem like that is lighthear…

If you want to know how many servers I'd need for a task or to discuss memory/space tradeoffs, then ask those questions outright instead of doing this indirect dance. I don't see how the question gives you an advantage when you're being asked to take skills you use and apply them to domains you don't work in that are irrelevant for the job. The skillset I have that allows me to accurately estimate software projects i…

Sounds like we have an excellent accord, then. I want employees who can think creatively about problems that they haven't seen before. So with any luck, you'll find places who want employees like you, and I'll find employees who match my criteria.

Re: If Richard Feynman applied for a job at Microsoft (2002)

#119

Post by s0rce »

Hokusai wrote: post #86
okareaman wrote: post #75

How many ping pong balls would it take to fill a 747? Why do you ask? What problem are you trying to solve? We want to understand your thought process I'd think it was stupid to fill a 747 with ping pong balls and think about something else

The problem is that it is impossible to give a good answer without context. Did it matter a 2% error? There are cost limits? Maybe you don't even need to know the number of ping pong balls but it would be faster to transport them by ship....

Isn't the context an interview, ie. give a decent order of magnitude estimate with back of the envelope methods.

Re: If Richard Feynman applied for a job at Microsoft (2002)

#120

Post by hintymad »

okareaman wrote: post #75

How many ping pong balls would it take to fill a 747? Why do you ask? What problem are you trying to solve? We want to understand your thought process I'd think it was stupid to fill a 747 with ping pong balls and think about something else

I'm not sure I buy this type of attack. How is this different from calculating yield of a bomb as Fermi did? It's back-of-envelope calculation that physicists do all the time. Ping Pong in a Boeing is merely a setup with the least context. This is like criticizing a math teacher for asking elementary students to calculate how long it takes to fill a swimming pool when water is flowing in and out of the pool at the same time. Yeah, the setup sounds ridiculous, but you know what, that's the setup that a student understands, and we see similar scenarios in real world: a company earns and spends at the same time, a queuing system has incoming traffic and completed tasks, a factory has incoming jobs and outgoing completed products... So, what's wrong with the question again?

Frankly, the fictional Feynman in the article sounds confrontational and arrogant. Take the manhole question for an example, all the counter questions are either nit picking, or rejecting the value of industrial design. Of course there is a reason for choosing a round shape for manhole cover. Of course there is a trade-off among different shapes.

Please note, I'm not saying the manhole question is good for interview, but it does not mean that we need to be mean and resort to cheap attacks to make a point.

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