Why is the university of California dropping the SAT? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#131

Post by b9a2cab5 » Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 5:05 PM UTC

usaar333 wrote: post #80

This is not a particularly strong article. Here's a much more data-backed one arguing similar points (though still with some bias): https://freddiedeboer.substack.com/p/you-arent-actually-mad-... Issues with this particular article (addressed by above): * It's ignoring the racial gap in SAT scores (and other standardized tests) that exists even after controlling for family income. A large part of the political narrat…

The idea that the SAT is somehow racist is quite laughable. If you controlled for both family income and hours spent per day on academics you'd probably get an equal result. Culture differences mean that Asians are forced by their parents to study longer and harder. As people have pointed out in this thread, parental involvement is the biggest contributing factor to student success, even more than income and school funding. If white/black/whatever parents aren't getting as involved as Asian parents then obviously even if you control for income there will be disproportionate outcomes.

I will ask you this: why do you think black people are overrepresented in the NBA relative to their share of the population? Could it be because black culture highly values sports and black kids tend to spend more time than the average kid playing sports due to parental or cultural influence? That same logic applies to Asians and education.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#132

Post by 908B64B197 » Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 5:05 PM UTC

Causality1 wrote: post #74

Aligning enrollment with state demographics would require cutting the share of those students by almost two-thirds. My best friend growing up was Korean. I saw firsthand the amount of effort he put into his studies. Why should we allow any institution to invalidate his work because our culture produces lazier, dumber students? Why should we artificially prop up patterns of thought and behavior that have negative effe…

I can only wonder if in a few years some company will have an unspoken rule about scoring candidates, thanks to all the affirmative action and "holistic admissions". With these policies, an Asian male has to be extremely talented to land a spot at a good state school/ivy.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#133

Post by 908B64B197 » Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 5:05 PM UTC

flowerlad wrote: post #40

Some parents move to areas with better schools in order to give their kids an advantage (such as Cupertino or Los Altos school districts if you are in silicon valley). This may seem like a sensible thing to do, but because of the weird admissions process in US colleges, this may actually work against the kid. It may make more sense to move to an area where the kid can stand out, where schools offer fewer AP courses,…

There's a selection bias here; the parents willing to do that are those who care the most about education.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#134

Post by analog31 » Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 5:06 PM UTC

PEJOE wrote: post #79

Manuel_D wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not necessarily. Wealthier parents are more mobile, and can move residences such that their children are in the top 10%.

You're losing the forest for the trees. Wealthier parents most often send their children to good private schools, and their children have lots of options for college if they are talented and hard working.

Where I lived in Texas, no middle class family sent their kids to public schools.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#135

Post by zepto » Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 5:07 PM UTC

Manuel_D wrote: post #67

rootusrootus wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that's an upside if you're looking to be equitable.

Not necessarily. Wealthier parents are more mobile, and can move residences such that their children are in the top 10%.

It seems like you are arguing that wealthy parents move to places with worse schools to make it easier for their kids to be in the top 10%.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#136

Post by nitwit005 » Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 5:07 PM UTC

pfisherman wrote: post #15

I think the University of Texas has one of simplest and most egalitarian admissions policies that I have seen. If you graduate in the top 10 percent of your class, then you are guaranteed admission to all state funded universities. As a Californian I find it quite ironic that many policies in “conservative” Texas (ex. university admissions, property tax, income tax) are more much more progressive than what we have in…

If the goal is to somehow boost black or hispanic admissions, it won't work at many schools due to other groups dominating the top 10%.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#137

Post by genedan » Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 5:10 PM UTC

pfisherman wrote: post #15

I think the University of Texas has one of simplest and most egalitarian admissions policies that I have seen. If you graduate in the top 10 percent of your class, then you are guaranteed admission to all state funded universities. As a Californian I find it quite ironic that many policies in “conservative” Texas (ex. university admissions, property tax, income tax) are more much more progressive than what we have in…

I'm from Texas, went to UT when it had the 10% rule. It was a problem for kids who went to competitive/affluent schools that were so competitive that one or two Bs would put you out of the running. So you would get some lopsided scenarios where some kids would get into MIT but also be rejected from Texas because the standards were that high. Meanwhile the valedictorian of a bad school with a 900 SAT score would get in. Some kids would move to less competitive high schools to have a chance at going to UT.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#138

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 5:11 PM UTC

pfisherman wrote: post #15

I think the University of Texas has one of simplest and most egalitarian admissions policies that I have seen. If you graduate in the top 10 percent of your class, then you are guaranteed admission to all state funded universities. As a Californian I find it quite ironic that many policies in “conservative” Texas (ex. university admissions, property tax, income tax) are more much more progressive than what we have in…

[deleted]

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#139

Post by jessaustin » Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 5:11 PM UTC

xyzzy21 wrote: post #101

charlesju wrote: post #12

Isn't GPA even easier to game than SATs? -- Private schools can curve more leniently so its pay to play -- Rich schools tend to have more AP/Honor courses which inflate weighted GPAs I went to one of the best public schools in America and it was not uncommon for someone to take 100% AP/Honors and get a 4.5+ GPA.

Private schools could but in my experience as a private HS grad, they DO NOT. There are other factors that prevent that.

Some don't. Others definitely do.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#140

Post by throwaway284534 » Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 5:12 PM UTC

908B64B197 wrote: post #117

throwaway284534 wrote: post #35

All this gnashing over test scores and booster programs is just showboating. If states really want to fix poor schools they should make school funding occur at the state level, rather than whichever random zip code you’re born into. Seriously, you can’t justify a wealthier neighborhood being entitled to better schools when they’re public institutions receiving state and federal funds. Evening out this funding is the…

> All this gnashing over test scores and booster programs is just showboating. If states really want to fix poor schools they should make school funding occur at the state level Does spending per pupil even correlates with outcomes? > rather than whichever random zip code you’re born into. Is it random or the result of the parents hard work?

I think there’s several issues going. The first is a lack of funding in poor schools. Less money, less resources. The second is that just having money doesn’t necessarily mean it’s going to be managed well by the administration. Maybe that too needs some amount of state oversight.

Lastly, the phrase “parents’ hard work” implies a lot about the core problem here. It’s no secret that wealthy families have a multi-generational advantage on less fortunate ones. Immigrating to this country and working your entire life is hard, and you may still never break out of your socioeconomic class. Perhaps your children may go further, but that’s significantly harder when their education is funded proportionally to your initial circumstances. Success isn’t just hard work, it’s the luck of your innate talents and abilities. It’s also being born at the right time and place to make a better life for your kids.