Why is the university of California dropping the SAT? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#111

Post by zzt123 » Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 4:52 PM UTC

jlangemeier wrote: post #93

Higher Ed Number cruncher here (who also read the report, which apparently was a big deal to the author since they cited the page count - and many of their arguments hinge on you taking their word for it and not reading at least the exec summary yourself - which is only 8 pages): So, fun thing about the actual study that the author references... the committee actually __DIDN'T__ tell UC regents to not get rid of the…

Ah. So when the article says that by percentage, white students are underrepresented, that’s because the denominator for the student body population includes all students (thus also international and out of state students), rather than just in-state California students?

Tricky article!

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#112

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 4:53 PM UTC

Aperocky wrote: post #28

pfisherman wrote: post #15

I think the University of Texas has one of simplest and most egalitarian admissions policies that I have seen. If you graduate in the top 10 percent of your class, then you are guaranteed admission to all state funded universities. As a Californian I find it quite ironic that many policies in “conservative” Texas (ex. university admissions, property tax, income tax) are more much more progressive than what we have in…

All system can be gamed. I guess UT isn't that prestigious to create strong enough incentives. Imagine if Harvard said you'd get admission if you're top 1% of the class. Imagine how many parent would just stick their kid into the worst school for 1-2 years to get that. California just made it very hard to game.

[deleted]

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#113

Post by ethbr0 » Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 4:54 PM UTC

BitwiseFool wrote: post #99

ethbr0 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> reducing its rank Do universities exist for students? Or do students exist for universities? I'm sure university administration believe the latter, but given that they're supported by the state (in UT's case, ~25% of their budget?) there's a pretty strong argument that they owe the people of the state education.

University Presidents and Trustees have this bizarre fixation on rankings. I have no clue why, especially considering the fact that that composition of the top 100 is fairly stable. Rarely does a university experience a big swing, up or down. Most universities are never going to dethrone the top 20, no matter how hard they try. And it's not like they are in desperate need for enrollment either.

I expect it's a case of metrics-measured, metrics-optimized-for.

Rankings are an easy "objective" measurement administrators can take to financial supporters (either government or private) and say "Here's what we're spending your dollars on." Consequently, rankings become very important to administrators.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#114

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 4:54 PM UTC

Aperocky wrote: post #28

pfisherman wrote: post #15

I think the University of Texas has one of simplest and most egalitarian admissions policies that I have seen. If you graduate in the top 10 percent of your class, then you are guaranteed admission to all state funded universities. As a Californian I find it quite ironic that many policies in “conservative” Texas (ex. university admissions, property tax, income tax) are more much more progressive than what we have in…

All system can be gamed. I guess UT isn't that prestigious to create strong enough incentives. Imagine if Harvard said you'd get admission if you're top 1% of the class. Imagine how many parent would just stick their kid into the worst school for 1-2 years to get that. California just made it very hard to game.

[deleted]

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#115

Post by dehrmann » Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 4:55 PM UTC

throwaway284534 wrote: post #35

All this gnashing over test scores and booster programs is just showboating. If states really want to fix poor schools they should make school funding occur at the state level, rather than whichever random zip code you’re born into. Seriously, you can’t justify a wealthier neighborhood being entitled to better schools when they’re public institutions receiving state and federal funds. Evening out this funding is the…

You also have to remember local tax contributions to schools is probably a good proxy for parental involvement.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#116

Post by failwhaleshark » Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 4:56 PM UTC

zzt123 wrote: post #84

seriousquestion wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thomas Sowell is easily in the top 5 intellectuals alive, and yet most people are barely aware of him and his work. Why? I genuinely don't understand why he is so ignored.

Whether he is ignored or not depends on the thought circle of discourse and how that circle sets, or does not set, expectations based on skin color. He’s ignored for the same reason Clarence Thomas is ignored - the juxtaposition between the color of his skin and his words.

Clarence Thomas' skin color is irrelevant. He believes the US should be a Gilead as much as the Taliban wants to turn Afghanistan into an Islamic nation: Christian state religion, no abortions, women and children as property, patriarchy, women at-home/barefoot/pregnant, no porn, no LGBT rights, no accommodations for disabilities, no dancing, no premarital sex, no divorces, criminalize adultery, decriminalize sexual harassment (irony!), no welfare except for the rich, no unions, and only teach abstinence and Creationism.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#117

Post by 908B64B197 » Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 4:56 PM UTC

throwaway284534 wrote: post #35

All this gnashing over test scores and booster programs is just showboating. If states really want to fix poor schools they should make school funding occur at the state level, rather than whichever random zip code you’re born into. Seriously, you can’t justify a wealthier neighborhood being entitled to better schools when they’re public institutions receiving state and federal funds. Evening out this funding is the…

> All this gnashing over test scores and booster programs is just showboating. If states really want to fix poor schools they should make school funding occur at the state level

Does spending per pupil even correlates with outcomes?

> rather than whichever random zip code you’re born into.

Is it random or the result of the parents hard work?

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#118

Post by stanford_labrat » Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 4:56 PM UTC

mattpratt wrote: post #70

josephcsible wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you graduate in the top 10 percent of your class, then you are guaranteed admission to all state funded universities. Aren't most schools small enough that this incentivizes sabotaging classmates to boost your relative rank?

In my experience the more common narrative was gaming the system to keep your GPA high. AP/DC/Advanced classes are typically shifted a GPA point up. For example, you may not take an elective (Photography) because getting the top grade in the class would still drop your overall GPA. Despite Spanish being available in middle school, our valedictorian waited until high school because it would count a point higher -- by…

My favorite example of this is a CISCO/networking class offered at my old high school.

It counted as 2 classes when it came to calculating your GPA...and accordingly was supposed to take up 2 "slots" on your schedule. However it didn't and instead the 2nd slot was always after school, which nobody went to anyways. So it allowed you to fit N+1 AP classes into what would normally be a N class schedule and gave a major advantage when calculating class rank.

As a result you got some very interesting people taking this class who you would never expect, simply to boost their class rank. It saddens me a little now to realize that these kids schedules were planned out from the beginning from fall freshman year to optimize their GPA...but I went to a very competitive school so in retrospect it makes sense.

Bonus, to your point they offered ap options for most arts and electives! You could take AP photography or "honors" art/music which counted as an AP for weighted gpa calculations :P

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#119

Post by zozbot234 » Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 4:56 PM UTC

enraged_camel wrote: post #58

pfisherman wrote: post #15

I think the University of Texas has one of simplest and most egalitarian admissions policies that I have seen. If you graduate in the top 10 percent of your class, then you are guaranteed admission to all state funded universities. As a Californian I find it quite ironic that many policies in “conservative” Texas (ex. university admissions, property tax, income tax) are more much more progressive than what we have in…

>> As a Californian I find it quite ironic that many policies in “conservative” Texas (ex. university admissions, property tax, income tax) are more much more progressive than what we have in “liberal” California. There isn't much that is progressive about property taxes. They affect the middle class much more than the poor (who often aren't homeowners) and the rich (who can afford high tax rates). Texas specifically…

> They affect the middle class much more than the poor (who often aren't homeowners) and the rich (who can afford high tax rates)

Absolutely not. The burden of property taxes falls largely on the capitalized asset-value of real estate, so a typical middle-class household can offset much of that burden by paying for a smaller mortgage in the first place. And poor renters largely benefit by not having to pay local income or sales taxes, since the burden of the tax will fall on their landlords. Property taxes are in fact quite progressive.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#120

Post by gedy » Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 4:57 PM UTC

Causality1 wrote: post #74

Aligning enrollment with state demographics would require cutting the share of those students by almost two-thirds. My best friend growing up was Korean. I saw firsthand the amount of effort he put into his studies. Why should we allow any institution to invalidate his work because our culture produces lazier, dumber students? Why should we artificially prop up patterns of thought and behavior that have negative effe…

From the article: "People in power today would much rather do something that seems to promote “equity” than make an evidence-based choice that could lead to accusations of racism. This is the kind of infuriating policy decision that looks like it is going to help poor, minority students but will actually harm them."