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The Framework Laptop is now shipping

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Re: The Framework Laptop is now shipping

#521

Post by ChuckNorris89 »

morganvachon wrote: post #505
vimacs2 wrote: post #429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would point out though that while he might have been wrong on the X1 Carbon, you still have not really dismantled the key argument - that you don't need to embrace soldered RAM to get laptops that are thin enough . At a certain point, you're just going to end up with an experience that is objectively worse since keyboards start having more and more give the thinner you make them (not to mention far worse feel). I'd…

I wasn't trying to dismantle an argument, just pointing out that the parent had no clue what they were talking about, and a little research would make for a stronger position to argue from (and save some embarrassment). I actually prefer laptops with upgradeable components and I'm definitely weighing replacing my two aging Thinkpad laptops (running OpenBSD and Void Linux respectively) with the Framework Laptop. I had…

Sorry, I got the X1 carbon wrong from a list of 3 laptops off the top of my head. I must have been thinking of another Lenovo and mixed them up.

What I don't understand is why you felt the need to get aggressive and diss me in 2 different posts saying I have no clue what I'm talking about or that I'm making stuff up and calling for my embarrassment, only for a small mistake, when you could have made the same arguments without the personal dissing.

I feel like being kind to others, even if they're wrong, goes a longer way in productive discussions. I definitely will not be replying to you again. Have a good day sir.

Re: The Framework Laptop is now shipping

#522

Post by vbernat »

jackcviers3 wrote: post #497
pclmulqdq wrote: post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason is signal integrity. Running a high speed signal (never mind a bus of 64+ of them) through a connector is hard and takes a lot of power because the connector can seriously degrade the signals. LPDDR can be low power because it doesn't have a "memory stick" abstraction, just memory chips and controllers. It's not the resistance that kills the signal, it's the inductance and the impedance mismatching.

1 watt vs 2 Watts. Stop shilling.

For something running at 5-6W while idle, this is not a small difference.

Re: The Framework Laptop is now shipping

#523

Post by adrusi »

criddell wrote: post #494
nrp wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks! We're looking forward to seeing the modules everyone develops, and we're excited to get new mainboards out in the future.

Why AMD? What about ARM? I don't want to use an Apple laptop, but I do want a fanless design with M1-type performance and battery life. Can you do that with anything from Intel or AMD?

No and it's probably not possible to get M1 results out of anything remotely modular. The M1's success is largely due to vertical integration. You definitely can't get as good a laptop using a non-Apple ARM chip (see e.g. the Surface X).

Re: The Framework Laptop is now shipping

#524

Post by input_sh »

Idiot211 wrote: post #393
neop1x wrote: post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never had a need for water-proof phone. I am not diving or bathing with the phone...

Sure, but the reason they're nice to have for that one time that an accident occurs, whether a drink is spilled or you drop it in the sink or whatever. It's a pleasant nice to have if it is waterproof.

That's just splash damage, which doesn't really equal waterproofing. There are different IP ratings for the two. Splash damage resistance is significantly cheaper and you'll find plenty of models that don't claim to be waterproof, but are still splash resistant. In other words, IP52/IP53/IP54 instead of IP63/IP64: https://www.dsmt.com/resources/ip-rating-chart/

Re: The Framework Laptop is now shipping

#525

Post by nrp »

luckystarr wrote: post #267
nrp wrote: post #4

Framework Founder here! I am happy to answer any questions on the product.

Any plans to "open up" (for a price) the specification for outside companies, so they can build components labeled "framework compatible" or some such?

Absolutely. We’ve already released open source reference designs publicly for the Expansion Card system, and we’re happy to enable third parties on other modules too.

Re: The Framework Laptop is now shipping

#526

Post by InitialLastName »

rthomas6 wrote: post #463
ribit wrote: post #396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LPDDR is low power because it is a more sophisticated device with more complex protocol compared to regular DDR, because it has a higher pinout allowing it to have a more efficient electrical connection and because the computer manufacturer can optimize the connection with specific chips in mind instead of having to support a wide range of devices. I think the number of pins is a practical limitation. Current DDR DIM…

It is if it's a standard that everyone decides to support...

You can fit FAR more signals on the bottom of a chip and in a multi-layer PCB than you can on any socket you might think of. There is a practical limit to how small the pitch of the pins on a socket can be if it's going to be field-replaceable; at high pin counts, the length of the socket itself becomes a driving factor.

As an example, even moving away from edge-connectors (which are just a non-starter for 800+ pins) Samtec's highest-density high-speed connector, the NovaRay line [0] advertises 224 signals per square inch, so an 800 pin module would require 4 square inches of connector space alone, not to mention making the system PCB assembly thicker and compromising on speed, power and thermals.

[0] https://www.samtec.com/connectors/high-speed-board-to-board/...

Re: The Framework Laptop is now shipping

#527

Post by [deleted] »

ribit wrote: post #286
victor9000 wrote: post #254

This device is seriously the answer to all my laptop problems. I really like the form factor of the XPS 13, but now I'm stuck with the complete inability to upgrade RAM. In what universe is that normal? Then I accidentally nuked the USB-C ports on the left side when it got wet, and now I'm left with a single port for everything, including charging. What!? Why? I tore the entire thing apart and there's just no way to…

> In what universe is that normal? In a universe where you want high-performance energy efficient RAM. Premium ultracompact laptops have long moved to LPDDR which is both faster and consumes significantly less energy than regular modular DDR. And LPDDR does not come in DIMMs. And then you have Apple who are using custom package technology with custom RAM chips to cut down RAM power consumption to under one watt activ…

[deleted]

Re: The Framework Laptop is now shipping

#528

Post by Brakenshire »

ribit wrote: post #492
rthomas6 wrote: post #463

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is if it's a standard that everyone decides to support...

That's the thing, who is everyone? Such technology would only be relevant to premium-level ultraportable notebooks. Desktops, gaming laptops as well as budget laptops would stick with the cheaper and more ubiquitous DDR. Smartphones and tables will continue to solder RAM on due to space constraints. Apple (who is the driving force in this market segment) won't be interested since they are going fully custom and I dou…

If LPDDR is faster won’t desktops and gaming laptops also want it?

One possible other compromise could be soldered LPDDR RAM, but with a DIMM expansion slot for DDR as well. I wonder whether the DDR could be switched off and the baseline power draw eliminated if the RAM usage was below needing it.

Re: The Framework Laptop is now shipping

#529

Post by jensensbutton »

d--b wrote: post #484
cconcepts wrote: post #280

I hope you guys slay the market and are able to keep up with the demand that is coming at you. I hope this is the Tesla moment for the consumer electronics industry where the incumbents are forced, through the hubris yet popularity of an upstart, to start innovating again and doing what is good for humanity rather than peddling incrementally changed products each year that are designed to become obsolete within an ev…

Well, I am not an Apple devotee, and I think that what you say is generally right. But Apple releasing M1 laptops kind of changed the game...

In what way? It is certainly another step forward in terms of battery life, but it's incremental and doesn't fundamentally change how people use laptops. Don't really think it changes the market either. People with Macs will upgrade eventually and people that don't use Macs now are unlikely to change because of it.

Re: The Framework Laptop is now shipping

#530

Post by wolverine876 »

specialist wrote: post #506
ribit wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In what universe is that normal? In a universe where you want high-performance energy efficient RAM. Premium ultracompact laptops have long moved to LPDDR which is both faster and consumes significantly less energy than regular modular DDR. And LPDDR does not come in DIMMs. And then you have Apple who are using custom package technology with custom RAM chips to cut down RAM power consumption to under one watt activ…

Please forgive the hi-jack... FWIW, the book Design Rules: The Power of Modularity systematically explores the tradeoffs. https://www.amazon.com/Design-Rules-Vol-Power-Modularity/dp/... Written by two economists, it's the only prescriptive definition of architecture that I've managed to find. Influenced me deeply.

So why are you holding back on us? :) What are the main trade-offs?
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