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It doesn't take much public creativity to stand out as a job candidate

simonwillison.net

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Re: It doesn't take much public creativity to stand out as a job candidate

#281

Post by neilv »

throwawaylinux wrote: post #254
cableshaft wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. I've had a portfolio of full video games I've coded and released on my own, as the sole programmer, that could be played on the web, had my name credited on the title screen, and you could even see the code on some of them, and I proudly included the link on my resume. Never brought up during the interview process, I was still expected to take the coding tests, and if I did a little poorly on one question I almo…

I've made lots (thousands? hundreds at least) of commits to the Linux kernel and have been working on it since pre (git) history, have developed a number of novel concurrent data structures / algorithms for it. I decided to talk with a FANG recruiter a couple of years ago who must have scraped my name from mailing list or commit histories. Despite first making it clear by email I wasn't interested in a job interview…

I wouldn't necessarily blame the recruiter for that particular one, since I'd guess the question was on a form that the org or manager required them to fill out.

The recruiter might've been especially metrics-driven, though. And maybe they were playing to metrics in a way that the org/manager didn't intend.

Or maybe the org/manager did intend your experience, and it was behavioral screen, for candidates who'll submit to whatever the emergent behavior of a corporate behemoth ends up doing to them. :)

Re: It doesn't take much public creativity to stand out as a job candidate

#282

Post by Retric »

satyrnein wrote: post #273
VBprogrammer wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've personally come across this dilemma when hiring people. My own take is that's none of my goddamn business and if the person is the most qualified for the job then it's theirs for the taking.

I don't think is optimal, either. It's not worth investing in onboarding someone, getting them situated in a team, then having to tell everyone a few months in that the person quit. If that seems like a very likely outcome, it makes sense to avoid it.

My experience is the most impressive people are significantly less likely to quit early. If they where doing a lot of interesting things in their free time they either become engaged with interesting projects at work or put in a solid work week and then go home to have fun with their own projects.

Albert Einstein for example worked for several years as a patent examiner while developing special relativity. Sure his contemporary physicists mostly worked in academia, but teaching is as unrelated to research as everything else yet they still did it.

Re: It doesn't take much public creativity to stand out as a job candidate

#283

Post by cableshaft »

z3t4 wrote: post #200
SlowAndCalm wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am similar (putting my WebGL games on my portfolio) and I've found it's actually a pretty good filter of employers for me. If they bring it up and are willing to have a discussion about it, it's always a good sign. There's a wide range of topics to talk about that can relate to the possibly more boring requirements of the job. If they are dismissive of them, it tends to be an early sign that they are unable to thin…

If you are over qualified, like having published several games on your own, it's not like they don't think you can do they job, they might think you will get bored and miserable.

Making games doesn't mean they're financially successful or making bank. Several of those I made were released as free Flash games back in the day, for example. And yet even those were more popular than some games I worked on professionally for companies while in the industry.

So now I do enterprise development for my day job and work on games on nights and weekends. And enterprise development isn't inherently boring either.

Programming is still programming, in both games and enterprise software there are times where you just need to power through easy boilerplate with some music or a podcast on, and other times where it's an intricate puzzle you have to mull over in silence, do some research or experimenting on, ask your colleagues for their opinions or insight, etc.

Re: It doesn't take much public creativity to stand out as a job candidate

#284

Post by satyrnein »

MillenialMan wrote: post #265
z3t4 wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are over qualified, like having published several games on your own, it's not like they don't think you can do they job, they might think you will get bored and miserable.

Do people really pass on candidates that often because they're too impressive? Overqualification in general seems like the kind of spectre that I just can't see translating to the real world.

Not an automatic rejection, but it certainly requires a conversation. I recently had to go back to a candidate to triple check that she really, really was fine not leading a team anymore, with no timetable on when that might happen again. After a few days, she withdrew. We were bummed, because she was great, but we had suspected it wasn't really what she was looking for.

Re: It doesn't take much public creativity to stand out as a job candidate

#285

Post by ant6n »

nanidin wrote: post #115
eru wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was working for Google at the time, and saw an internal post by the guy who interviewed the candidate. I'm not sure if there's anything public (and what I am even allowed to say.) See https://www.quora.com/Whats-the-logic-behind-Google-rejectin... where he (at least partially) admits that he was bullshitting: > I want to defend Google, for one I wasn't even inverting a binary tree, I wasn’t very clear what a binary…

I highly recommend interested readers to follow through to the Quora page. It’s more or less a public apology, and helped break me out of the echo chamber that occurs here and on Reddit related to interviewing at Google.

It looks like there are a bunch of programmers who think that having taken the first year uni course on data structures is more important than having experience actually building product and having it used by millions.

It's kind of silly. Most programmers out of school have a lot to learn about building product and actually getting a big project done - which they are supposed to learn on the job. At a place like Google. Somebody who knows this part already could probably spend some time on the job learning about data structures.

It's like these conventionally-taught programmers think they get to look down on somebody who actually built something cuz he's self-taught. (As a conventionally-taught programmer who is very comfortable with data structures I find that attitude aloof at best)

Re: It doesn't take much public creativity to stand out as a job candidate

#286

Post by cableshaft »

satyrnein wrote: post #284
MillenialMan wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do people really pass on candidates that often because they're too impressive? Overqualification in general seems like the kind of spectre that I just can't see translating to the real world.

Not an automatic rejection, but it certainly requires a conversation. I recently had to go back to a candidate to triple check that she really, really was fine not leading a team anymore, with no timetable on when that might happen again. After a few days, she withdrew. We were bummed, because she was great, but we had suspected it wasn't really what she was looking for.

Sometimes that's the case, though. I've led teams before, and I don't mind going back to just head down focused on code again. Leading people tends to be more lucrative but also dulls the coding blade.

Re: It doesn't take much public creativity to stand out as a job candidate

#287

Post by cableshaft »

Retric wrote: post #282
satyrnein wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think is optimal, either. It's not worth investing in onboarding someone, getting them situated in a team, then having to tell everyone a few months in that the person quit. If that seems like a very likely outcome, it makes sense to avoid it.

My experience is the most impressive people are significantly less likely to quit early. If they where doing a lot of interesting things in their free time they either become engaged with interesting projects at work or put in a solid work week and then go home to have fun with their own projects. Albert Einstein for example worked for several years as a patent examiner while developing special relativity. Sure his c…

Sometimes having a light day job gives you more energy for your personal projects you care a lot more about at night :)

Re: It doesn't take much public creativity to stand out as a job candidate

#288

Post by cableshaft »

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #272
krageon wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I want to work here because I need money to eat and you seemed like a safe choice"

Some day I'm actually going to try this in an interview. Interviewer: "Why do you want to work for us?" Me: "Honestly, I don't want to work for anybody because I have too much other stuff I'd much rather be doing with my time. But I need an income to sustain myself so, if I'm going to work, I want to work here because I think it'll be easy, provide decent benefits, and it's a 20 minute bike ride from my house."

If I were in charge of hiring (I'm not), I very well might hire you for that :)

Re: It doesn't take much public creativity to stand out as a job candidate

#289

Post by gambler »

Just because you stand out doesn't mean you stand out in a positive way.

The idea that every piece of writing or open-source code you produce in public will be seen as a positive by everyone out there is patently absurd. Yes, you can put "creative" stuff on your resume. Some companies might appreciate it, many will ignore it, and most will judge you for it.

One obvious outcome of putting your blog on your resume in today's environment is that you will have to scrub it of anything anything even remotely controversial or unusual. You will have to constantly self-censor from that point on.

Re: It doesn't take much public creativity to stand out as a job candidate

#290

Post by satyrnein »

cableshaft wrote: post #286
satyrnein wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not an automatic rejection, but it certainly requires a conversation. I recently had to go back to a candidate to triple check that she really, really was fine not leading a team anymore, with no timetable on when that might happen again. After a few days, she withdrew. We were bummed, because she was great, but we had suspected it wasn't really what she was looking for.

Sometimes that's the case, though. I've led teams before, and I don't mind going back to just head down focused on code again. Leading people tends to be more lucrative but also dulls the coding blade.

Certainly, people's preferences change, their lives change, etc. Nothing wrong with that, just have to make sure all parties are aligned.

And yes, my blade is quite dull at this point!

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