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The Framework Laptop is now shipping

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Re: The Framework Laptop is now shipping

#401

Post by ribit »

andresgottlieb wrote: post #302
ribit wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In what universe is that normal? In a universe where you want high-performance energy efficient RAM. Premium ultracompact laptops have long moved to LPDDR which is both faster and consumes significantly less energy than regular modular DDR. And LPDDR does not come in DIMMs. And then you have Apple who are using custom package technology with custom RAM chips to cut down RAM power consumption to under one watt activ…

Why is it that you can't have this with socketed RAM? Is there a physical limitation?

As far as I understand, a number of things make a difference:

- Socketed RAM is limited by the number of pins, DDR SO-DIMM for example has 2-3x fewer pins than your average LPDDR4X module. Having more pins helps running the chips on lower power as it was explained to me by an engineer (something to do with grounding and lower voltage, I am not really sure how it works but I trust the guy)

- Socketed RAM is a least common denominator, there will inevitably be some variance between different modules, which leaves you with less possibilities for optimizing the electrical connection

- Current LPDDR is much more sophisticated than regular DDR, the protocol is different etc. So you can't just stick LPDDR chips on a DDR SO-DIMM and expect it to work

I am sure one could design a modular system based on LPDDR, but the question is whether such system would be feasible. It would be limited to premium laptops only (as modular system would take too much space in a smartphone), it would probably need a higher pinout (which would mean a complex mounting bracket of some sort) and it would require laptop manufacturers to agree on a certain standard.

There are other considerations as well, especially if one wants to break the current performance boundaries. For example, Intel has announced that they will integrate HBM with their upcoming Xeons. How do you intend to make that socketable, that's 2048-bit memory bus. Or consider Apple's new in-house SoCs. By mounting RAM directly onto the package substrate they can potentially deliver high-bandwidth RAM in an energy efficient package without increasing the cost and the complexity of the mainboard. E.g. their upcoming hardware is widely expected to use 256-bit RAM, something that has so far been reserved for workstations. As you make the interface wider and wider, modularity becomes more and more expensive. Why don't GPU's offer modular RAM for example?

Re: The Framework Laptop is now shipping

#402

Post by ribit »

franga2000 wrote: post #344
Aeolun wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I imagine you may have some difficulty getting the pins to make contact if they’re too small.

Modern CPUs are an order of magnitude more complex and usually built on a smaller process, yet we have no trouble putting them on intermediary PCBs to spread out contacts and allow larger pins. I see no reason we couldn't make LGA sockets for DRAM chips in the same way.

The beauty and success of DIMM modules is that they are a simple slide-in to install technology. It's easy to operate, cheap, robust, and it is very space efficient. Imagine RAM modules in an LGA socket instead... how much space would it require? How robust would it be? What will be the price? I am quite sure all of these issues can be solved, but is it worth it? Let's be honest, users who are interested in having upgradeable RAM in their ultraportable laptop are such a small minority that the practical interest in developing modular low-powered RAM is close to zero.

Re: The Framework Laptop is now shipping

#403

Post by pclmulqdq »

franga2000 wrote: post #335
ribit wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In what universe is that normal? In a universe where you want high-performance energy efficient RAM. Premium ultracompact laptops have long moved to LPDDR which is both faster and consumes significantly less energy than regular modular DDR. And LPDDR does not come in DIMMs. And then you have Apple who are using custom package technology with custom RAM chips to cut down RAM power consumption to under one watt activ…

So just...put LPDDR on a DIMM? Or some other kind of removable slot?? I see no technical reason you couldn't. Or, instead of soldering chips, make little LGA slots for the individual chips. I can't imagine the tiny added resistance from an extra millimeter of wire and pin surface contact would impact much of anything and even if it does, I'd rather take that than have no options when the next Windows update makes my…

The reason is signal integrity. Running a high speed signal (never mind a bus of 64+ of them) through a connector is hard and takes a lot of power because the connector can seriously degrade the signals. LPDDR can be low power because it doesn't have a "memory stick" abstraction, just memory chips and controllers. It's not the resistance that kills the signal, it's the inductance and the impedance mismatching.

Re: The Framework Laptop is now shipping

#406

Post by neycoda »

ribit wrote: post #286
victor9000 wrote: post #254

This device is seriously the answer to all my laptop problems. I really like the form factor of the XPS 13, but now I'm stuck with the complete inability to upgrade RAM. In what universe is that normal? Then I accidentally nuked the USB-C ports on the left side when it got wet, and now I'm left with a single port for everything, including charging. What!? Why? I tore the entire thing apart and there's just no way to…

> In what universe is that normal? In a universe where you want high-performance energy efficient RAM. Premium ultracompact laptops have long moved to LPDDR which is both faster and consumes significantly less energy than regular modular DDR. And LPDDR does not come in DIMMs. And then you have Apple who are using custom package technology with custom RAM chips to cut down RAM power consumption to under one watt activ…

I love the idea of needing to replace the laptop to upgrade RAM. /sarc

Re: The Framework Laptop is now shipping

#407

Post by wayoutthere »

tomxor wrote: post #345
ribit wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In what universe is that normal? In a universe where you want high-performance energy efficient RAM. Premium ultracompact laptops have long moved to LPDDR which is both faster and consumes significantly less energy than regular modular DDR. And LPDDR does not come in DIMMs. And then you have Apple who are using custom package technology with custom RAM chips to cut down RAM power consumption to under one watt activ…

> In a universe where you want high-performance energy efficient RAM [.....] You simply can’t have this with socketed RAM. You make it sound like a prerequisite. I'm pretty sure the reason LPDDR is Low Power is not due to (currently) being unavailable in socketed modules - that would seem to be a side-effect of the original target market (smart phones). They are just some BGA packages, I see no reason they couldn't b…

There’s no technical reason not to (I’m no EE but I’m sure it could be done somehow), but there’s no demand for removable memory. The entire consumer PC market is already a rounding error for the semiconductor industry, and the enthusiast market that would be interested in this is a very small portion of that market.

Like it or not, repairable/upgradable laptops are a thing of the past. There’s just not component support or sufficient market demand to make the parts removable anymore.

Re: The Framework Laptop is now shipping

#408

Post by davidy123 »

hughrr wrote: post #381
davidy123 wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see why that's the case for Lenovo though (which I'm most familiar with - Thinkpads), since you have to order online. They could do batches of different configurations, it might add a small delay for particular configurations, but that would be ok. What they do now, mostly limiting larger RAM/storage configs to top end CPUs, seems like an upsell (though at least their storage is usually replaceable, and after…

Most people buy low end machines from Apple. They just keep volume handy. Although recently when I went to Apple store they had no stock at all here in the UK of anything. Literally emptied out.

Yes, but how much does it cost Apple to put a larger volume in, compared to what they charge the consumer for that one feature? I have very often seen Apple users hampered by this, including losing data due to having to juggle external storage. Upsell.

Re: The Framework Laptop is now shipping

#409

Post by trulyme »

eikenberry wrote: post #100
dorfsmay wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any chance for a keyboard with a trackpoint and its 3 buttons in the future? A lot of us, addicted to the trackpoint, are not liking some directions Lenovo have taken in the recent years.

+1, please consider offering this. A track point and 3 real buttons are so much nicer than a trackpad. At least to some of us. ThinkPads success seems to indicate there are a lot of us.

As a counterpoint, I love ThinkPads but never understood the appeal of the track point. I don't mind it being there of course, but it is not a reason to prefer one laptop to another, and definitely not the reason I like ThinkPads.
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