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Time to assume that health research is fraudulent until proven otherwise?

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Re: Time to assume that health research is fraudulent until proven otherwise?

#481
post #20

I recently had the privilege of trying to do the right thing when I identified fraudulent research carried out by an institution in Austria. The initial response of the institution was positive but when I pressed for further details on how such things could happen suddenly nobody anymore would take my call. The research was paid for by a private company to pimp a nonsense product. The research was never published in…

It seems well intentioned, but I'm not surprised at all about the outcome. I don't think you can expect the institution to implicate themselves like that. You have to realize that preventing legal and financial liabilities is the #1 priority for institutions. Unfortunately this includes when they are wrong. Even if the employees are "good" their lawyers will advise them against providing any details like that and mos…

> I don't think you can expect the institution to implicate themselves like that.

A) Why not?

B) If not, then you can and should expect the people within the institution to implicate it: Everything is a decision, even the decision not to make a decision. For them to not make the decision to become a whistleblower, is for them to make the decision not to become a whistleblower -- i.e, to condone research fraud. If you really, really want to insist that institutions can't be black-balled, then we'll just have to start black-balling the people within them. (If the world starts to do this diligently and systematically, I think you'll rather quickly see a lot of people denouncing this kind of shit at their institutions, probably just as swiftly followed by a developing consensus that maybe you should expect institutions to police themselves.)

Re: Time to assume that health research is fraudulent until proven otherwise?

#482
post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can pair it with: if it works, it's controlled. Meaning you can't get it without prescription and have to go through the tortures of a health "care" system.

What fraction of your drug store purchases involve prescriptions? For me it's Aspirin and fluoride toothpaste are each pretty darn effective.

Over here, even supermarket toothpaste has fluoride, so we don't go to the pharmacy for that.

Re: Time to assume that health research is fraudulent until proven otherwise?

#483
I presently work at Defense Innovation Unit where pretty much all we do is test and evaluate prototypes on behalf of the services and agencies. We spend hundreds of thousands to millions testing each thing. Because hundreds of millions of dollars may be spent based on what we find. We probably get 80 pitch decks for every area of interest we announce. That usually gets winnowed down to 5-10 that actually have technical merit and are responsive. We get a few shysters with every batch, but the vast majority are simply too optimistic about what they've done or what they can accomplish.

Re: Time to assume that health research is fraudulent until proven otherwise?

#484
post #20

I recently had the privilege of trying to do the right thing when I identified fraudulent research carried out by an institution in Austria. The initial response of the institution was positive but when I pressed for further details on how such things could happen suddenly nobody anymore would take my call. The research was paid for by a private company to pimp a nonsense product. The research was never published in…

It seems well intentioned, but I'm not surprised at all about the outcome. I don't think you can expect the institution to implicate themselves like that. You have to realize that preventing legal and financial liabilities is the #1 priority for institutions. Unfortunately this includes when they are wrong. Even if the employees are "good" their lawyers will advise them against providing any details like that and mos…

It's pretty easy to set things up to overcome this hurdle: say either the institute handles your enquiry in a scientifically honourable manner or you will contact one of the high profile muckrakers.

The most entertainingly written such blog to my taste is Leonid Schneider's:

https://forbetterscience.com/author/leonidschneider/

Most university administrators can see avoiding coverage like this is a good thing:

https://forbetterscience.com/2020/06/04/michael-hottiger-of-...

Re: Time to assume that health research is fraudulent until proven otherwise?

#485

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There exist lubricants for which non-fossil crude oil production sources are possible such as PAG and others. Likewise, there exist many plastics and synthetic rubber that are not petro based, however ethylene, which is a petrochemical byproduct, is still required for a lot of plastic uses. This doesn't matter much, it is totally possible to produce these things without vast ghg production. Sure. However, the probl…

What you mentioned here is for sure true, but mainly the pertinent data revolves around burning the stuff. All the petrochemicals aren't doing this, its the ghg, mostly from combustion. Sorry to quote in this way, it isn't meant to editorialize, only to organize my response: > [...]the problem with this idea is that it is easy to pick a few things here and there that can be done without petroleum. [...] The world wou…

> Its definitely much more involved, just as you say.

That's all I am trying to convey. I am mostly sick and tired of the reduction of reality to a single variable or culprit and then pounding on that ad-nauseum as if that is actually how we are going to solve anything. This is how one gets to stupid ideas like seeding the ocean with chemicals to promote CO2 capture. What? I don't care what anyone says, that's far more likely to kill all life on earth than save it.

Our history is full of unintended consequences of sure "solutions", like that island in Australia, where they introduced one species to get rid of another. The end result is that they swapped one plague for another that might actually be worse. We can't even do something like that successfully --because reality isn't a single variable problem-- and we actually dare to suggest we can modify climate at a planetary scale? The hubris in this kind of thinking is thick and dangerous.

The single variable reduction is how we get idiot politicians like AOC pushing absolute nonsense day after day. Because it is simple they are successful at linking to "bad" and, after that, position their hairbrained idea as the savior. This kind of thing should inspire projectile vomiting, not a following.

> One thing I strongly agree with you about is that nuclear energy is likely a critical help to this endeavor.

Nuclear has been the elephant in the room for decades. OK, I get it, plants build in the 1960's might not have been optimal. We can say that about cars, planes and even ballpoint pens. That's the history of humanity. Well, I think we can build them to be very safe these days. Don't build them where a tsunami can hit them, etc. To paraphrase, there's a list for that (or there should be).

What's interesting about nuclear is that you can simply (OK, not so simple) connect them to the grid and your energy and power delivery capacity instantly increased, 24/7/365. Build a 1 GW class plant and you have 1 GW, rain or shine.

Nuclear, from my perspective, is the ONLY way we can support the conversion of the entire ground transportation fleet to electric power.

Here are the results of a simple model I threw together trying to answer a simple question:

How much power do we need to support the entire US fleet of cars going electric?

The simplest assumption is one where 100% of the fleet uses 8 hour long charge cycles:

    daily charge energy                       50,000 Wh
    cars                                 300,000,000 cars
    long charge                                    8 hours
    fast charge                                  0.5 hours

    Portion charging long                        100%    
    Portion charging fast                          0%    
    
    % of long-chargers charging simultaneously   100%    
    % of short-chargers charging simultaneously    0%    
            
    Total daily energy requirement            15,000 GWh
            
    Cars long-charging simultaneously    100,000,000 cars
    Cars short-charging simultaneously             0 cars
            
    Power for simultaneous long charging       1,875 GW
    Power for simultaneous short charging          0 GW
    Total power requirement                    1,875 GW

This isn't realistic, you are not going to have 300 million cars charging simultaneously during the same eight hours. Or, are we?

If every hour we have, say, 1/8 of the entire fleet plug in for eight hours to charge, what's the maximum number of vehicles that will be charging simultaneously at any point in the day? The assumption is that car will charge for eight hours and be off charge for 16.

Well, eight hours into the day we will, in fact, have 300 million cars charging simultaneously. After a full 24 hours from the start of this approach, the minimum number of cars charging simultaneously will be 187.5 million and the maximum 300 million.

So, yes, at peak utilization we will will have 300 million cars, requiring that we deliver 50 kWh in 8 hours, which means a peak requirement of 1,875 GW.

This means we need nearly two thousand giga-watt class nuclear power plants to support a fleet where 100% of the vehicles will slow charge.

What happens when some percentage of the fleet needs to fast charge? I am defining fast charging as delivering 50 kWh in 30 minutes:

    daily charge energy                       50,000 Wh
    cars                                 300,000,000 cars
    long charge                                    8 hours
    fast charge                                  0.5 hours

    Portion charging long                         80%    
    Portion charging fast                         20%    
    
    % of long-chargers charging simultaneously   100%    
    % of short-chargers charging simultaneously   20%    
            
    Total daily energy requirement            15,000 GWh
            
    Cars long-charging simultaneously    240,000,000 cars
    Cars short-charging simultaneously    12,000,000 cars
            
    Power for simultaneous long charging       1,500 GW
    Power for simultaneous short charging      1,200 GW
    Total power requirement                    2,700 GW
Now we need 2,700 giga-watt class nuclear power plants in order to be able to deliver the power needed to support the bulk of the fleet slow-charging and the remainder fast-charging spread across the day.

TWO THOUSAND SEVEN HUNDRED nuclear power plants.

Even if I am off by a factor of ten (I threw this together and it is very simplistic), that means nearly 300 nuclear power plants to be built in, say, 30 years. We have to build ten per year and we had to get started yesterday.

This is the kind of thing I look at when I talk about not reducing reality to single variables. The amount of energy we delivery by using petroleum is of a scale that is hard to imagine. To go electric we have to find alternative means to deliver some percentage of that energy (because electric cars are more energy-efficient than IC vehicles) to every car on the road every day. This task is far from being simple. Beyond that, the unmitigated mess that US politics has become over the last few decades virtually guarantees we cannot build a single nuclear power plant, much less ten, fifty or a hundred.

Frankly, I have no clue how this could even be possible. I think we are going to have some number of people driving electrics and, in the hubris of it all, we are going to ignore the fact that we are going have to burn twice or three times more coal to charge those cars every day. It has all the potential to be a larger mess than what we currently have.

I would love for someone to take the time to develop and publish a better model than my mindlessly-simple quick calculation. I know a lot of subtlety could be introduced. That said, I somehow don't think we can escape physics.

Re: Time to assume that health research is fraudulent until proven otherwise?

#486

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you mentioned here is for sure true, but mainly the pertinent data revolves around burning the stuff. All the petrochemicals aren't doing this, its the ghg, mostly from combustion. Sorry to quote in this way, it isn't meant to editorialize, only to organize my response: > [...]the problem with this idea is that it is easy to pick a few things here and there that can be done without petroleum. [...] The world wou…

> Its definitely much more involved, just as you say. That's all I am trying to convey. I am mostly sick and tired of the reduction of reality to a single variable or culprit and then pounding on that ad-nauseum as if that is actually how we are going to solve anything. This is how one gets to stupid ideas like seeding the ocean with chemicals to promote CO2 capture. What? I don't care what anyone says, that's far mo…

You may very well be correct, we haven't moved nearly at all on this problem in 50 years, and we are really far behind.

On the plus side, moving combustion from vehicles to centralized sources does a lot for much better efficiency. There is a lot of variation in the efficiency of vehicles that is nearly impossible to control for. Centralized sources can be much more easily managed than aging ICE all over the place.

That definitely doesn't address your main point that we are unprepared to convert.

Thanks for the work you've done preparing your analysis, I've read it entirely. I can sense your frustration with the general ignorance of more or less everybody wrt what we actually need to do. It's something I also feel. When examining the problem the conclusion I have immediately is that the entire industrialized world and probably the rest of the world, basically all of human society, is very tangled in the business of burning petroleum.

You've mentioned a lot of things that ring very true to me, such as the scale of the problem, the political boondoggle (I don't know of another way to say clusterfuck, but that doesn't really capture either) and the nearly complete lack of functional solutions as well as a tendency for incumbent forces to prevent implementing what solutions we do have available.

There are also a lot of vested interests who frankly make a lot of money doing what we do now. The US has also benefited greatly from the status quo of fossil fuel in a geopolitical sense, It's pretty much been the center of global foreign policy since WWI. "Developing" nations such as China (they are definitely developED) are using it too, they're on the same page of the usage story, I don't see anything at all different there.

The only thing that is really gonna do the heavy lifting are economic needs, because as much as I hate to admit it, it's the only language that is useful or understandable at all anymore.

Our conversation is really about nuclear power it seems. I recognize that, but I don't have any solutions to that impasse that we are experiencing. The one thing that I see helping that cause is, weirdly enough, alternative energy like solar, geothermal and hydro electric. Don't lose it on me yet please, I'm not trying to change the subject.

If we do end up taking seriously the prospect of implementing as much non-nuclear, non-fossil electrical generation as we can, it will have a positive economic effect on the usage of electrical power vs fossil power. This doesn't melt the enormous capacity iceberg that you have very well pointed out, but providing additional economies of scale for this kind of electric power will allow economic forces to begin to favor it vs fossil fuel.

If electrical storage becomes more necessary, we might be in a position to create a demand for additional electric resources including nuclear power. Additional development of alternative sources will drive more innovation, dollars, research and political interest into the usage and creation of this kind of energy.

When everybody wants to have solar panels which are looking more and more economically desirable, they may also invest in storage technologies that allow them to use it more effectively. This kind of thing can augment baseline electrical demand in a variety of dimensions: Politically, it will be much more desirable to create electrical sources, economically it will be easier to achieve because of greater scaling, and the technology will improve as investment increases with the demand. I suspect nuclear energy will be a better sell in a world where there is more understanding of electrical needs.

I don't know how to give nuclear energy a better PR campaign... people just don't understand why its desirable, but its easy to imagine how it could be undesirable. By the same token, people just live their lives with whatever is there, and that's gasoline and whatever makes electricity for them now or whatever they feel culturally comfortable with. As well, there is a clear fact that oil producing corporations have a lot of power, politically and economically, with which to do their own PR, but nuclear energy does not have giant multinationals pushing for its development and use.

It doesn't look good, that's for sure.

I appreciate the effort you have expended making your point, it has benefited my thought process.

Re: Time to assume that health research is fraudulent until proven otherwise?

#487

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What fraction of your drug store purchases involve prescriptions? For me it's Aspirin and fluoride toothpaste are each pretty darn effective.

Over here, even supermarket toothpaste has fluoride, so we don't go to the pharmacy for that.

Drug store is not the same as a pharmacy. (At least here in Germany). Of course you can get fluoride toothpaste in the supermarket as well though.

Re: Time to assume that health research is fraudulent until proven otherwise?

#488

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there is an emerging cultural mechanism to deal with this in the growing “epidemiology is bullshit” sentiment There is an emerging cultural mechanism - more a rampaging mob - that says 'X is bullshit' as a simple way of denying facts or issues that are inconvenient or difficult. It's used for the news media, academia, non-partisan government agencies (e.g., the CDC), etc., etc. and for everyone who disagrees. I say…

If it isn’t a randomized interventional study, and apparently now even those are subject to fraud, it doesn’t prove anything. They shouldn’t be discussed except in cases where a real study is impossible (global warming) or when trying to reason about which hypothesis should be tested next. It’s definitely a vein of ripe shit in our society, the misuse of epidemiology.

Epidemiology is precisely one of those cases were very often a randomized control trial isn't feasible (or even ethical to begin with). Your argument is self-defeating.

That's why countless time has been spent refining the techniques and methods used to make and understand those studies, and why the vast majority of experts balance different kind of studies while making decisions, not just RCTs.

Re: Time to assume that health research is fraudulent until proven otherwise?

#489
post #460

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's no honesty anywhere - or rather, the honest people get squeezed out of the field. Well that's an unsupported conjecture that I see no reason to accept. > Changing the subject like this is a huge red flag that you're using motivated reasoning Where is the motivated reasoning in acknowledging that climate change is not the only reason to replace fossil fuels?

> Well that's an unsupported conjecture that I see no reason to accept. I base it on having friends who were in the field; of course that won't be particularly convincing to you. (I'm pretty sure others in these comments had examples of people being pushed out for reaching the "wrong" conclusions, but I have to be honest that I'm trusting the people I know personally rather than anything else). > Where is the motivat…

> Suggesting that climate change is likely to be true because you have non-climate-change reasons to want to replace fossil fuels is motivated reasoning

Except I didn't do that.

> The fact that you brought up non-climate-change problems with fossil fuels in a thread about whether climate change is occurring suggests that you're doing it.

The thread isn't strictly about whether climate change is real, it was about climate change alarmism, about whether climate change was reducible to a single variable, and whether we should be motivated by the available evidence to make drastic changes to potentially avoid the predicted outcomes. The additional point I made is perfectly in line with that.

Re: Time to assume that health research is fraudulent until proven otherwise?

#490

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not true. Not even close. Particularly if you move away from optimal solar regions. Convenient that you just skipped over one of the options that doesn't require "optimal" solar regions. > In addition to that, manufacturing the grid energy storage capacity required to service planetary scale requirements will result in unspeakable consumption of natural resources (mining), pollution and environmental challenges. No…

> No, what I'm doing is telling you that there is a benefit there. Our current grid design is frankly terrible, speaking as an electrical engineer. Then please, pretty please, with sugar on top: You have the scientific and mathematical training to actually understand that what you are being told is complete bullshit. However, you have to be willing to apply some of that critical thinking, engage in some simple resear…

I agree scale is the big obstacle, but I think you're kind of doing the same thing you're accusing others of doing: reducing solutions to single variables, like thinking lithium batteries manufactured using dirty methods are the only or primary grid storage solution.

A mixed energy economy with a variety of energy storage solutions can address the various needs, and you must also take into account the evolution of technologies and economic incentives.

For instance, the energy delivered each day to cars by chemical means is indeed huge, so you naturally conclude that we can't possibly deliver that much energy using known batteries and renewable technologies. Let's suppose that's true, there are some factors that will affect how this actually plays out:

a) ICE are very inefficient while electric vehicles are much more efficient, and so the total energy to deliver is significantly lower than that delivered by fossil fuels now,

b) vehicle utilization is also inefficient, in the sense that there's no real need for everyone to have their own cars and drive point to point; improved public transit is one solution, but so is something like Uber pool, thus improving the utilization of the delivered energy and thus reducing demand further

c) as for storage alternatives, solid state batteries are very close, and numerous other storage options already exist and are deployed, with improved variants being tested around the world already; I think the wikipedia page on this is decent, in particular if you pay attention to the tech that's already deployed and running [1,2].

I agree that this is a huge problem because fossil fuels are so heavily embedded in our economy in so many ways, but I don't think it's insurmountable. If enough of us can get on the same page that some outcome needs to happen, we can get pretty far pretty fast. We need a Manhattan project level commitment to this, and the country that does this well will have a huge first mover advantage to sell this to other countries. Vested fossil fuel interests are preventing this though.

10 years ago I would have been 100% with you that nuclear power was the option we should be investing in, but given the precipitous fall in the cost of renewables, I don't think nuclear is a slam dunk anymore. Nuclear still has its place in the move away from fossil fuels, and the renewed interest and new reactor designs seem promising.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grid_energy_storage#Batteries

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grid_energy_storage#Thermal

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