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Autonomy founder Mike Lynch can be extradited to US

bbc.com

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Re: Autonomy founder Mike Lynch can be extradited to US

#111

Post by mjw1007 »

throwawaycuriou wrote: post #96
trasz wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It shouldn’t matter: jurisdiction depends on where the crime was committed, not on alleged victim’s nationality. This only happens one way, with extradition to the US, thanks to worldwide bullying.

As a US resident, if I rolled a large boulder downhill and fatally crushed a small child across the Mexican or Canadian border, would I be liable to extradition?

There have been cases of US citizens literally shooting and killing Mexican children over the border, and extradition was refused.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hernandez_v._Mesa

Re: Autonomy founder Mike Lynch can be extradited to US

#112

Post by relativ575 »

trasz wrote: post #102
throwawaycuriou wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a US resident, if I rolled a large boulder downhill and fatally crushed a small child across the Mexican or Canadian border, would I be liable to extradition?

I’m guessing not, as the general rule is that US doesn’t extradite it’s citizens.

The US does extradite its citizens:

https://www.npr.org/2021/03/02/972784817/2-americans-extradi...

Re: Autonomy founder Mike Lynch can be extradited to US

#113

Post by buran77 »

kube-system wrote: post #95
ris wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Has a US company that deals with a Chinese one be considered to have committed a crime in China if the Chinese decide they have broken one of their laws? And in such a case what are peoples feelings about extradition?

Usually when countries disagree significantly on law, they just don't sign extradition agreements. It takes at least two countries to make this decision. The US has not signed such an agreement, and thus, it doesn't matter what China thinks.

> when countries disagree significantly on law, they just don't sign extradition agreements

That isn't about "compatibility" of the laws. The US has extradition treaties with pretty much all of their allies but the conditions are mainly dictated by the US given their stronger position.

No country's laws condones war crimes and yet no international court even tried prosecuting any case of suspected war crimes committed by the US military because of things like this [0].

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Pr...

Re: Autonomy founder Mike Lynch can be extradited to US

#114

Post by downandout »

wil421 wrote: post #84
dathinab wrote: post #6

As far as I can tell US prisons (in generally, not necessary all but I think most) are basically a heap of human right violations. In that context I think extraditing anyone to the US should be treated as a human right violation and as such should not be done. And even if we ignore their prisons from a German Law POV a lot of their law is fundamentally in conflict with the values represented by the constitution and m…

He’s not going to those kinds of prisons no matter what, if anything, he is convicted of. White collar crimes done by rich people go to white collar prisons. If you or I did this on a smaller scale we would probably go to regular prison but not a billionaire.

The kind of prison he goes to will depend on the length of his sentence. Federal prisons have a reputation for being relatively tame, but this is only true at the minimum security level. Inmates with more than 10 years on their sentences cannot be placed at minimum security facilities, however.

The remainder of the security levels - low, medium, and high - are the the kinds of places you see in movies with all of the attending violence, sexual assaults, and generally nightmarish life.

In the federal system, sentences for fraud are based on amount of loss. For an $11 billion fraud, he would be sentenced to either life, or hundreds of years in prison - and there is no parole in the federal system. That length of sentence would require him to be kept at a high or medium security facility until his death - natural or otherwise - even though his crime was technically white collar.

Basically, if he is extradited to the US, he will never see the light of day, and will regularly experience every horror that the US prison system is rumored to have everyday for the rest of his life until he dies. So deciding to extradite him is a really big decision. It’s not just a slap on the wrist - it’s torture until he dies.

Re: Autonomy founder Mike Lynch can be extradited to US

#115

Post by dragonwriter »

trasz wrote: post #87
Lendal wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article makes it sound like the victim was HP, an American company, based in America. Did I misinterpret something?

It shouldn’t matter: jurisdiction depends on where the crime was committed, not on alleged victim’s nationality. This only happens one way, with extradition to the US, thanks to worldwide bullying.

> jurisdiction depends on where the crime was committed

No, it doesn't. Sovereignty is inherently unlimited. Jurisdiction depends on the law of the party seeking to exercise it. Bringing someone before the court with jurisdiction may sometimes require external cooperation, but the terms of that are products of diplomacy; there's no hard and fast universal rules.

Re: Autonomy founder Mike Lynch can be extradited to US

#117

Post by bhelkey »

dheera wrote: post #82

"He denies allegations that he fraudulently inflated the value of Autonomy before the sale." Don't most startup founders fraudulently inflate the value of their startups? "We are going after a 100 billion dollar market" Yeah right ... only a tiny fraction of that market wants your product.

> "We are going after a 100 billion dollar market"

IANAL - That doesn't sound like fraud to me.

A highschool athlete saying 'they are going after attending the Olympics' isn't lying. A highschool athlete without Olympic experience saying 'they won a gold medal at the Olympics is lying.

Re: Autonomy founder Mike Lynch can be extradited to US

#118

Post by freeopinion »

guiriduro wrote: post #99
nyc_pizzadev wrote: post #42

Some details here: https://www.justice.gov/usao-ndca/pr/former-autonomy-cfo-sen... > The evidence at trial demonstrated that for more than two years prior to the sale, Hussain, 55, a citizen and resident of the United Kingdom, used sophisticated accounting methods to falsely inflate Autonomy’s revenues to make it appear Autonomy was growing when it really was not. Specifically, Hussain used backdated contracts, round…

Sounds like something that would potentially be criminal in the jurisdiction in which the company operated, and for whom any questions of interpretation of accounting as criminal or otherwise would be wholly circumscribed: that jurisdiction is the UK. Nothing - especially a US-style "plea bargain" of trumped up charges threatening long incarceration unless the victim pleads 'guilty' to them, akin to torture in the wo…

https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/autonomy

says that Autonomy HQ is in San Francisco, CA.

Re: Autonomy founder Mike Lynch can be extradited to US

#119

Post by dathinab »

_2d30 wrote: post #38
dathinab wrote: post #6

As far as I can tell US prisons (in generally, not necessary all but I think most) are basically a heap of human right violations. In that context I think extraditing anyone to the US should be treated as a human right violation and as such should not be done. And even if we ignore their prisons from a German Law POV a lot of their law is fundamentally in conflict with the values represented by the constitution and m…

> As far as I can tell US prisons (in generally, not necessary all but I think most) are basically a heap of human right violations. Excited to learn about the German prisons that respect human rights. The "prisoners" just come and go as they feel? The whole point of prisons is to take away a human's rights. That's like fundamental to the concept of incarceration. Or are you concerned with US prisons violating too ma…

Prisons are NOT meant to take away your human rights, they will take away some of your rights temporary but that's not the same.

The main point of prisons is to temporary take away your freedom (which is often perceived as on of the most valuable rights) as a form of punishment for you crime, but that's where it stops.

You are sentenced to 10 years of prison not 10 years of torture, and potential random death.

If your arbitrary put people in solitary confinement, expose them to unnecessary risk from other inmates or risk of health due to absurd temperatures you are effectively arbitrary non lawfully adding additional punishments on top of the prison sentence a person has. Which is in direct conflict with what a state of law is supposed to be.

I mean lets say you committed a minor crime with a small prison sentence of but now you are forced to stay in a room which massively increases your chance of dying in the next few hours (heat+ heart disease), this means instead of being sentenced to 2 weeks of prison you are now sentenced to 2 weeks of prison + torture + a high chance to it arbitrary getting a death sentence.

Furthermore the worse the prison is the harder it gets to proper rehabilitate the person afterwards, which gets worse in the US due to treatments of ex-convicts. But again your sentence was 2 years in prison not 2 years in prison and hardly any chance to life a normal life afterwards even if you try.

The last point is even worse because it's not just bad for the convinced, it's especially bad for the rest of society which now has to coop with a increased crime rate as direct consequence of how prisons are handled. Which in turn will cause more people to be dragged into situations where they will commit crimes leading to a vicious crime increasing cycle.

There are more then just a few studies which relatively clearly show that treating prisoners as imprisoned but still human and help with rehabilitation will decrease effective crime rates and will in total benefit society, even if it might sometimes seem unfair in specific cases.

EDIT: To be clear the temperature is just one easy to understand example, but not the only problem and not applicable to all prisons. For people not aware of it, during very hot days some prisons get so hot that using ventilators or water vapor makes the situations worse, e.g. the are blown over by the ventilator is so hot that instead of giving your body a chance to cool it heats it up further.

Re: Autonomy founder Mike Lynch can be extradited to US

#120

Post by kube-system »

buran77 wrote: post #113
kube-system wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Usually when countries disagree significantly on law, they just don't sign extradition agreements. It takes at least two countries to make this decision. The US has not signed such an agreement, and thus, it doesn't matter what China thinks.

> when countries disagree significantly on law, they just don't sign extradition agreements That isn't about "compatibility" of the laws. The US has extradition treaties with pretty much all of their allies but the conditions are mainly dictated by the US given their stronger position. No country's laws condones war crimes and yet no international court even tried prosecuting any case of suspected war crimes committe…

I'm not talking about disagreements in the minutia of law. I'm talking about "disagreement" of law in a broad context. Extraditions to the US, even from countries with which the US has a treaty, are not always honored.

My point is that it's not a one-way street. Countries extradite because they think it's in their best interest.

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