Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Everything you need to know about Covid-19 vaccines

pharmaceutical-journal.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

81–90 of 97 posts

Re: Everything you need to know about Covid-19 vaccines

#81

Post by vkou »

ghoward wrote: post #76
vkou wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can only make that judgment for yourself. Assuming that your judgment works for everyone is highly presumptuous. Yet people who refuse to get vaccinated seem to have no problem making this judgement for other people that they are likely to spread COVID to, when they fall ill.

When I fall ill, I quarantine. I do not just "spread" it to others. Other than that, I'm not responsible for the health of other people. They are responsible for their own health.

Covid also spreads asymptomatically, and for a lot of people, days 1-14 of it can feel a lot like a common cold. You need to take preventable measures to not be a potential spreader. Those measures are... Getting vaccinated.

Unless you are living in a spacesuit, you shedding viral particles into common spaces does make you responsible for the health of other people.

Re: Everything you need to know about Covid-19 vaccines

#82

Post by _Microft »

ghoward wrote: post #74
_Microft wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With communicable diseases, your decision does not only affect you yourself but the rest of society as well. So we are actually making a decision for everyone with that.

One of the greatest lies of this COVID saga is that everyone is responsible for everyone else's health. We are not. The vulnerable are responsible for their own health and should take measures to protect themselves , not expect everyone else to do it for them.

Always Has Been

You have always been responsible not only for your own safety but also for the safety of your contacts/co-workers/environment. If you think otherwise, you might want to reflect about communicable diseases/STDs/traffic/gun safety/work place safety/you name it in general and it should become glaringly obvious. Covid safety is not different. For now, the required measures are more severe but it is not true that it is a special in regard of having to look out for others.

Re: Everything you need to know about Covid-19 vaccines

#83

Post by kaskakokos »

fsh wrote: post #68
kaskakokos wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not sure that this is accurate. For me it is like a coin: - One side shows the benefits of the vaccine, and let's not forget that this side is promoted by the vaccine sellers. No problem with that, they do their job, in a few months we will see a 3rd and 4th dose being promoted to ensure immunity. - The other side shows the cons of the vaccine, but as you said it is not sufficiently studied. It seems to me insuf…

This is not at all what I said! Before conditional approval, possible risks have been extensively studied in very large phase 3 trials with a few ten thousand participants. For reference, the phase 3 study of the conventional TBE vaccine I recently got had just a few thousand participants. Like for any other medication, regulatory agencies have used this safety and efficacy data to judge whether the vaccine is benefi…

Thank you for your response, it seems you know a lot about this, no irony :)

I understand your point, and I have read some papers (not recently, but in the first months of the vaccines invention). Also I understood your words (probably my bad) "One needs to do a proper statistical analysis to determine if there is any causal link to the vaccination" as "not sufficiently studied".

Lets be clear, I am not antiVax (I have all of their recommended / required vaccinations and am very aware & grateful for the protection they provide), I have questions (the same kind of critical questions I do my self when choosing between mortgages or where spend my holidays).

Then, which are my doubts?

- This vaccines has been manufactured within a fraction of the normal time frame, I understand they may be used within vulnerable groups, but for the healthy ones... I am not in a hurry, let allow the test of time...

- Pharmaceutical companies are seeking indemnification against any adverse consequences from vaccines... It will be not the first time the seller of a drug hide adverse hide-effects. It looks like asymmetric to me, no responsibilities in one side, my health on the other.

- Without looking into details (details=lives), vaccination as a strategy has as little regard for human life / well-being and is just as reckless as herd immunity. Lets put 3 examples:

         1) I have 2 kids, almost zero possibilities of being badly affected by covid, should I vaccine them bearing in mind the points above?

         2) My wife has a rare disease, should she vaccine?

         3) I am an healthy 37 man, should I vaccine?
Do you see the grey areas?

Re: Everything you need to know about Covid-19 vaccines

#84

Post by kaskakokos »

kmos17 wrote: post #75
kaskakokos wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you, and with all this uncertainty, does anyone know if: Covid-associated problems > Vaccine-associated problems? I imagine that this is not so easy, probably we can split the response by age, previous medical issues, etc. An also I am sure that Covid-associated problems (including dead) have been decreasing since it was first discovered in humans. So, which is the status?

Covid associated problems: 600k dead in the US alone Vaccine associated problems: none even remotely approaching that kind of scale if any. What uncertainty is there?

See my comment above please. Not black, not white, my point is on the grey areas.

Note 1: I remember covid had a fatal rate of ~3% during the worst months. In the the Med Alerts web (see link above) the death rate of vaccines is 2.37%. It is the same scale. If I am misinterpreting it, I am happy to learn.

Note 2: Only as example (but you can iterate), lets analyse it from age perspective: Covid fatal rate has this [1] distribution by age, Would you recommend everybody vaccine given the probable hiden-effects of the vaccine?

[1] https://cdn.statcdn.com/Infographic/images/normal/20860.jpeg

Re: Everything you need to know about Covid-19 vaccines

#85

Post by CorrectHorseBat »

ghoward wrote: post #72
CorrectHorseBat wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know how you you calculated that risk, but right now the numbers are so overwhelmingly in favor of the vaccines that even with a 1% chance of getting COVID-19 getting the vaccine you don't trust is safer than getting the virus you should trust even less. And unless you live in one of the few countries that have contained COVID-19 (for now), the chance of getting COVID-19 is a lot higher than that. If you've a…

You say that right now, the numbers are overwhelmingly in favor of vaccines. I disagree, but even if you're right, that's only right now . Until we know more about their long-term effects, we don't know. I'm in the age group that has higher risk of blood clots from the vaccines. Also, according to some estimates, 60-90% of people have had COVID, so I could have had it.

> You say that right now, the numbers are overwhelmingly in favor of vaccines. I disagree, but even if you're right,

How can you possibly disagree with that? There is a several orders of magnitude difference. Data for the USA: there are 6,207 reports of people dying after getting the vaccine (of which only a few have a plausible causal relationship between getting the vaccine and death) [1], while there are 607,289 registered COVID-19 deaths [2] (and yes, the excess deaths do agree with that number [3]). There are exactly three confirmed vaccine deaths in the USA, from TTS due to the J&J vaccine.

> Until we know more about their long-term effects, we don't know

I agree, so we should act on basis of the data we have right now. And that data says overwhelmingly says getting a vaccine is much safer than getting COVID-19 on the short and mid long-term. There is nothing that points to that on the long term suddenly the vaccines will be worse than the virus.

> I'm in the age group that has higher risk of blood clots from the vaccines.

There is no evidence that the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines increase the risk of blood cloths. On the other hand, there is plenty of evidence that COVID-19 does.

[1] https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/ad... [2] https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/?CDC_AA_refVal=http... [3] https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm

Re: Everything you need to know about Covid-19 vaccines

#86

Post by ghoward »

_Microft wrote: post #82
ghoward wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the greatest lies of this COVID saga is that everyone is responsible for everyone else's health. We are not. The vulnerable are responsible for their own health and should take measures to protect themselves , not expect everyone else to do it for them.

Always Has Been You have always been responsible not only for your own safety but also for the safety of your contacts/co-workers/environment. If you think otherwise, you might want to reflect about communicable diseases/STDs/traffic/gun safety/work place safety/you name it in general and it should become glaringly obvious. Covid safety is not different. For now, the required measures are more severe but it is not tr…

COVID safety is different because the measures we are being forced to do is actually affecting our ability to live.

Re: Everything you need to know about Covid-19 vaccines

#87

Post by ghoward »

vkou wrote: post #81
ghoward wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I fall ill, I quarantine. I do not just "spread" it to others. Other than that, I'm not responsible for the health of other people. They are responsible for their own health.

Covid also spreads asymptomatically, and for a lot of people, days 1-14 of it can feel a lot like a common cold. You need to take preventable measures to not be a potential spreader. Those measures are... Getting vaccinated. Unless you are living in a spacesuit, you shedding viral particles into common spaces does make you responsible for the health of other people.

If people are vulnerable, they are responsible for taking precautions. If I am sick, even with the "common cold," I quarantine.

Re: Everything you need to know about Covid-19 vaccines

#88

Post by ghoward »

CorrectHorseBat wrote: post #85
ghoward wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say that right now, the numbers are overwhelmingly in favor of vaccines. I disagree, but even if you're right, that's only right now . Until we know more about their long-term effects, we don't know. I'm in the age group that has higher risk of blood clots from the vaccines. Also, according to some estimates, 60-90% of people have had COVID, so I could have had it.

> You say that right now, the numbers are overwhelmingly in favor of vaccines. I disagree, but even if you're right, How can you possibly disagree with that? There is a several orders of magnitude difference. Data for the USA: there are 6,207 reports of people dying after getting the vaccine (of which only a few have a plausible causal relationship between getting the vaccine and death) [1], while there are 607,289 r…

We should not act just on the basis of data we know now. We should also follow the Precautionary Principle.

These vaccines are still experimental. I am not going to take any one of them until at least they are not and companies accept liability for them.

On top of that, trying to shame people into taking the vaccines, as I see so many doing, is authoritarian. It does not lead to a good place.

This is my line in the sand against authoritarianism. It turns out that my line is against being forced to be part of an experiment. Where's yours?

Re: Everything you need to know about Covid-19 vaccines

#89

Post by kmos17 »

kaskakokos wrote: post #84
kmos17 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Covid associated problems: 600k dead in the US alone Vaccine associated problems: none even remotely approaching that kind of scale if any. What uncertainty is there?

See my comment above please. Not black, not white, my point is on the grey areas. Note 1: I remember covid had a fatal rate of ~3% during the worst months. In the the Med Alerts web (see link above) the death rate of vaccines is 2.37%. It is the same scale. If I am misinterpreting it, I am happy to learn. Note 2: Only as example (but you can iterate), lets analyse it from age perspective: Covid fatal rate has this [1…

It's not clear to me what this data you are linking to means or that it is being correctly interpreted, but I think it is pretty safe to assume that if the vaccines had a 2.37% death rate we would know about it!

162M people in the US alone have been fully vaccinated, with a 2.37% death rate it would have resulted in 3.8M deaths!!

Come on, please use some common sense.

Re: Everything you need to know about Covid-19 vaccines

#90

Post by kmos17 »

kaskakokos wrote: post #84
kmos17 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Covid associated problems: 600k dead in the US alone Vaccine associated problems: none even remotely approaching that kind of scale if any. What uncertainty is there?

See my comment above please. Not black, not white, my point is on the grey areas. Note 1: I remember covid had a fatal rate of ~3% during the worst months. In the the Med Alerts web (see link above) the death rate of vaccines is 2.37%. It is the same scale. If I am misinterpreting it, I am happy to learn. Note 2: Only as example (but you can iterate), lets analyse it from age perspective: Covid fatal rate has this [1…

To reply to your second note separately, yes everybody needs to be vaccinated to stop the spread. Otherwise unvaccinated individuals remain as a permanent pool of carriers that offer the virus the opportunity to spread and evolve.

And clearly from looking at the news there are many categories of high risk older people and even health care professionals like nurses that have fallen for this idiotic questioning, and are putting themselves and everyone else at risk.

Polio would have never been eradicated with this kind of - it doesn't affect me so why should I get it - mentality.

Post reply on HN