Twitter tests Reddit-style upvote and downvote buttons • Hacker News Board

Re: Twitter tests Reddit-style upvote and downvote buttons

#331

Post by daaaang » Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 4:15 PM UTC

heurisko wrote: post #191

The problem is, is supposedly, upvote = adds to the conversation, downvote = detracts from conversation. In reality, upvote = I agree, downvote = I disagree. However I don't think anything can save twitter from being a toxic platform. What makes it especially toxic, I think, is its lack of separation of communities. Reddit is toxic sometimes, but at least there is some separation: if you just want to talk about knitt…

> if you just want to talk about knitting, you can avoid the people talking about politics

Ever since r/the_donald and the other white supremacy reddits, politics has spilled into pretty much every good subreddit, no matter how niche.

Re: Twitter tests Reddit-style upvote and downvote buttons

#332

Post by useragent86 » Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 4:16 PM UTC

IanCal wrote: post #118

alpaca128 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I did that quite a bit - and my voting rights where removed. When I asked by email my voting behavior was cited as trying to be controversial by upvoting already downvoted comments That's disappointing. I do the same actually. Not to cause controversy but, well, because sometimes I agree and try to vote honestly. Maybe there are malicious attempts that look the same from the server's perspective, but it's still wei…

I think there's two ways it can go, I don't know which was the case here but I can understand them being treated differently if this is what happened: * Upvoting comments because you think they are good comments, regardless of whether they are downvoted or not * Voting more for things that are downvoted than things that aren't, because you think the downvoting is unfair The former is just adding your vote to the pool…

> The latter is deliberately trying to undo other votes, distorting the system.

That's begging the question: What is distortion in the system? Isn't a system with both upvoting and downvoting one designed around everyone trying to undo others' votes?

What if the first 5 people to see a comment hate it and downvote it, and then the 6th person likes it and upvotes it: should the 6th person not be allowed to vote anymore? What if the first 5 people to see a comment love it and upvote it, and the 6th person hates it and downvotes it: should the 6th person not be allowed to vote anymore?

Is it just a race? Whoever votes first gets to decide a comment's value, and dissenters aren't allowed to vote anymore? Or are some people's votes more valid than others?

I would submit that the system is broken by design. And how better to reinforce its brokenness than to not allow dissenters to even vote in a manner contrary to prevailing opinion. It's bad enough that dissenters are downvoted to invisibility and flagged by those who abuse the guidelines (once a comment is downvoted and flagged, its chances of receiving corrective attention are minimal). To, on top of that, not even allow dissenters to vote anymore, to try to correct abusive brigading--is such a system not the very definition of an echo chamber?

And what is the purpose of such a place?

Re: Twitter tests Reddit-style upvote and downvote buttons

#333

Post by useragent86 » Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 4:20 PM UTC

unishark wrote: post #144

IanCal wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there's two ways it can go, I don't know which was the case here but I can understand them being treated differently if this is what happened: * Upvoting comments because you think they are good comments, regardless of whether they are downvoted or not * Voting more for things that are downvoted than things that aren't, because you think the downvoting is unfair The former is just adding your vote to the pool…

I think it's very common and important for people to vote to undo downvotes. I do it. A single downvote can turn something gray and make it appear like an unpopular side of the discussion when it's not controversial at all except in the opinion of one downvoter on a mission or something. At the same time, I may otherwise be stingy with upvotes unless a contribution is especially deserving (or makes me laugh, of cours…

> A single downvote can turn something gray and make it appear like an unpopular side of the discussion when it's not controversial at all except in the opinion of one downvoter on a mission or something.

Yes, exactly: even a single downvote penalizes a comment, making it less likely to be seen by people who might upvote it, and attracting more downvotes from unfair-minded dogpilers.

It turns the whole system into a game of chance, a race against unknown opponents: if a comment is first seen by people who like it, it's likely to attract more upvotes and climb. If a comment is first seen by people who hate it, it's unlikely to be seen by people who would like it, likely to attract more downvotes from dogpilers, and it will likely die a quick and permanent death.

The system does not "surface" good content. Its design encourages abusive behavior.

Re: Twitter tests Reddit-style upvote and downvote buttons

#334

Post by zzbzq » Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 4:20 PM UTC

Sergiu37 wrote: post #137

whalabi wrote: post #116

I've wondered why Twitter seems far more toxic than Reddit (certain now-banned subreddits excluded) and I believe the downvote is a powerful tool used to achieve this, along with Reddit's community-style moderation, even though that can border on toxic itself at times. I wrote about it here a little while back https://unlikekinds.com/article/trolls-and-consequences-what...

Reddit is not toxic if you agree with the majority views. If not it is probably the most toxic social media. So other views people leave and so reddit remains a bubble of like minded people that don't see their toxicity. You can just look at some popular subreddits like iata i am the asshole or idiotsincar or murdered by words, justiceserved to name a few and many other where people just laugh and are being toxic tow…

If you think reddit is "the most toxic" you haven't been to twitter, even at its worst it doesnt hold a candle

Re: Twitter tests Reddit-style upvote and downvote buttons

#335

Post by BizarroLand » Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 4:24 PM UTC

aquova wrote: post #307

I'm of several minds about this change. On the one hand, I am rather fond of the 'original' Twitter layout. You had your feed of people you followed displayed in chronological order, retweets would show a post to your followers, likes showed support and served as bookmarks. I still keep my timeline in chronological mode, and I don't really care for any change they've made from that original standard. The up/downvote…

Makes me wonder if the reason Twitter is toxic is because people in large enough groups tend to become toxic?

"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it." -Kay, Men in Black

Re: Twitter tests Reddit-style upvote and downvote buttons

#336

Post by itsoktocry » Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 4:31 PM UTC

heurisko wrote: post #191

The problem is, is supposedly, upvote = adds to the conversation, downvote = detracts from conversation. In reality, upvote = I agree, downvote = I disagree. However I don't think anything can save twitter from being a toxic platform. What makes it especially toxic, I think, is its lack of separation of communities. Reddit is toxic sometimes, but at least there is some separation: if you just want to talk about knitt…

>However I don't think anything can save twitter from being a toxic platform. What makes it especially toxic, I think, is its lack of separation of communities.

I don't find Twitter any more or less toxic than any other platform, and it's because I'm free to participate in the communities I choose. If the people you follow are constantly talking politics, and that annoys you, why are you following them?

Re: Twitter tests Reddit-style upvote and downvote buttons

#337

Post by krapp » Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 4:31 PM UTC

EugeneOZ wrote: post #255

krapp wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More often than not the spicy contrarian hot takes of those who don't "follow the herd" are just the bleats of sheep following another herd.

Nice statistics, your source is reliable and the numbers are impressive and trustworthy. And it doesn't change the fact I’ve posted.

You get what you give.

Re: Twitter tests Reddit-style upvote and downvote buttons

#338

Post by useragent86 » Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 4:35 PM UTC

bloniac wrote: post #171

The most toxic device on the internet is the downvote. It’s nothing more that a “criticize” button, or perhaps “attack”, “belittle”, “devalue”. Downvotes make people feel hurt belittled and attacked. Nothing wrong with upvoting - that’s positive. Downvoting destroys all good will. And of course so clever and funny here in HN this comment gets downvoted, which proves my point. The downvote is the tool of the drive by…

Agreed. It's like, imagine being out in public, in a town square, having a conversation with a group of people while others mill about. Suddenly, you're hit in the face with a rotten tomato. You have no idea where it came from, or who threw it, or why. But you are now covered in the stinky remains of an inedible food, and everyone around you recoils in digust.

Somewhere, retreating into the crowd, is the coward who threw it at you because he didn't like something you said. He doesn't have to argue against you, nor does he have to put his name and face to his position and action. But he's effectively taken you out of the conversation.

Now multiply that by thousands of people and thousands of tomatoes, usually thrown by a certain kind of person on a certain side of controversial issues. Eventually the people on the other side get tired of being hit by rotten tomatoes, so the conversations cease, and the Heckler's Veto has won again.

At least in real life, there's a chance that the troll will be seen lobbing fruit, be confronted, and be discouraged from doing it again. But online, with anonymous downvoting, they operate with impunity, silently sabotaging conversations everywhere.

Re: Twitter tests Reddit-style upvote and downvote buttons

#339

Post by kevin_thibedeau » Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 4:38 PM UTC

heurisko wrote: post #191

The problem is, is supposedly, upvote = adds to the conversation, downvote = detracts from conversation. In reality, upvote = I agree, downvote = I disagree. However I don't think anything can save twitter from being a toxic platform. What makes it especially toxic, I think, is its lack of separation of communities. Reddit is toxic sometimes, but at least there is some separation: if you just want to talk about knitt…

They should have dummy agree/disagree buttons that disappear once selected and has no function other than to satisfy the malcontents that the machine has recorded their opinion.

Re: Twitter tests Reddit-style upvote and downvote buttons

#340

Post by useragent86 » Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 4:47 PM UTC

badRNG wrote: post #226

ottomanbob wrote: post #8

This is a small step in a generally right direction. Should be celebrated!

To the people downvoting this comment: I see you disagree with an upvote/downvote system, but use that same system to communicate that belief. Curious.

You walk into a convention center. The greeter at the door hands you a banana cream pie. A few moments later, you're hit in the face with a banana cream pie. After the sense of shock subsides, you hit the nearest person in the face with your banana cream pie. You wish that no one had been given banana cream pies, but after getting hit with one, you certainly weren't going to not hit someone else with one, too.