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Even if you’re paying, you’re still the product

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Re: Even if you’re paying, you’re still the product

#71

Post by Tade0 »

jamiequint wrote: post #25
nonameiguess wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't seem like a fair representation. The quote there isn't saying you should expect totally free services. It's saying you have the right to expect not to be tracked . Advertising up until 20 years ago relied entirely upon context and behavioral and engagement studies were conducted on an opt-in basis on Nielsen families and focus groups composed either of volunteers or people being compensated for participa…

You do not, and should not, have a right not to be tracked. You should have a right to know if a given company wants to track you, and to decide if you want to still do business with them as a result. Similarly, they should have the right to know if you are going to block/evade tracking and be able to decide if they still want to do business with you as a result. This is how a free market works.

That's assuming a maximally unregulated market is an ideal we're striving for, which isn't the case - at least not in the EU, and that is a good thing.

Re: Even if you’re paying, you’re still the product

#72

Post by pdpi »

LegitShady wrote: post #55
irjustin wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be explicit, you're paying for the add-on storage. I think the distinction is important. You can't pay for GMail unless you're part of Workspaces (GSuite). Am I still the product in GSuite? Well I don't get ads so... maybe not?

I pay for ad-free YouTube and YouTube music premium. It’s possible to make any fees for service a fee for something other than service. “You’re not paying for YouTube you’re paying to not see ads on YouTube”. You’re not paying for gmail, you’re paying for removing ads in gmail, so you can still be analyzed and tracked, etc. It’s just semantics and creative structuring.

GSuite and Youtube play by very different rules, though. Youtube is a consumer product and privacy legislation unfortunately doesn't have much in the way of teeth. GSuite is a business product, and there's many industries they'd like to serve that are fairly strict about data breaches.

Re: Even if you’re paying, you’re still the product

#73

Post by SCNP »

raxxorrax wrote: post #17
pdpi wrote: post #9

The next to last paragraph bothers me: On Hackernews, they think it's "entitlement" to think that you can use free email and search engines and expect not to be tracked. The main problem with this line of thinking is that even if you had the option to pay for your email and for your search engine, some G**gle executive somewhere would mention during a meeting that they could add an extra $X million of revenue if they…

If you are strict with this argument, there would also be no free internet sites to visit. I don't need to use any of Googles services to be tracked by Google, although Facebook is probably the largest offender here. In social networks, friends of mine have shared my contact information without me even knowing it. So other people might pay with your data. And I believe the text is correct. You would pay and be tracke…

To add to your 3rd point, your friends (and possibly you) may have shared yours and other's contact information without them even knowing it. As you said, Facebook is one of the worst offenders of grabbing all the contacts in a phone without the user's knowledge...

Re: Even if you’re paying, you’re still the product

#74

Post by benjaminjosephw »

emodendroket wrote: post #44
benjaminjosephw wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, I thought you were about to object to the generalization of an end-usr denigrating HN perspective! Okay, even if it is "entitled" to expect something for nothing, it's dishonest not to be clear and upfront about the costs. In fact, if you think the entitlement is misplaced then it's really a failure of the service providers in educating the users rather than a failure of the users themselves. If you don't agree,…

I find it hard to believe in this day and age that people don’t understand the basic business model of these services.

People in technology have a far greater understanding of the depth, breadth and potential consequences of selling data and attention to advertising platforms than the average user. Even then, we still don't necessarily know exactly how normative technology can be. That's like taking payment in the form of a blank cheque and calling it "free".

The business model might be clear enough, but the cost and consequences are not.

Re: Even if you’re paying, you’re still the product

#75

Post by mehlmao »

jamiequint wrote: post #25
nonameiguess wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't seem like a fair representation. The quote there isn't saying you should expect totally free services. It's saying you have the right to expect not to be tracked . Advertising up until 20 years ago relied entirely upon context and behavioral and engagement studies were conducted on an opt-in basis on Nielsen families and focus groups composed either of volunteers or people being compensated for participa…

You do not, and should not, have a right not to be tracked. You should have a right to know if a given company wants to track you, and to decide if you want to still do business with them as a result. Similarly, they should have the right to know if you are going to block/evade tracking and be able to decide if they still want to do business with you as a result. This is how a free market works.

Oh hey, the "growth consultant" thinks we shouldn't have privacy. It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.

Re: Even if you’re paying, you’re still the product

#76

Post by marcellus23 »

taeric wrote: post #70
emodendroket wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have always found it pretty helpful when Gmail would add reminders and calendar events by scanning emails so I can see it.

When it is locally done, I find it hard to see what isn't too like. That is, if I open an email and it asks if I want to make a reminder or add it to my calendar, that is cool. When I see that several emails I have not opened are already on my calendar, I am less happy about it.

That can still be done locally, no? You don't have to open an email for the phone to retrieve its contents.

Re: Even if you’re paying, you’re still the product

#77

Post by o8r3oFTZPE »

pdpi wrote: post #9

The next to last paragraph bothers me: On Hackernews, they think it's "entitlement" to think that you can use free email and search engines and expect not to be tracked. The main problem with this line of thinking is that even if you had the option to pay for your email and for your search engine, some G**gle executive somewhere would mention during a meeting that they could add an extra $X million of revenue if they…

Before Gmail, it used to be common to have an email account through one's ISP. No need for Google.

IIRC, when Zuckerberg was testifying before Congress, one senator said his terms of service "sucked". Was he wrong.

Re: Even if you’re paying, you’re still the product

#78

Post by Aboh33 »

JohnFen wrote: post #31
jamiequint wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do not, and should not, have a right not to be tracked. You should have a right to know if a given company wants to track you, and to decide if you want to still do business with them as a result. Similarly, they should have the right to know if you are going to block/evade tracking and be able to decide if they still want to do business with you as a result. This is how a free market works.

> You should have a right to know if a given company wants to track you, and to decide if you want to still do business with them as a result. Theoretically true, but what happens when all sites engage in spying? We're nearly there right now. You could argue that I still have the choice to avoid using online services entirely. Which is what I do (outside of a small handful of exceptions, such as HN -- and even then,…

'...You could argue that I still have the choice to avoid using online services entirely. Which is what I do...'

Same here. Outside of HN, very few sites I will actually visit making use of outline dot com or internet archive when needed

Re: Even if you’re paying, you’re still the product

#80

Post by clevergadget »

mehlmao wrote: post #75
jamiequint wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do not, and should not, have a right not to be tracked. You should have a right to know if a given company wants to track you, and to decide if you want to still do business with them as a result. Similarly, they should have the right to know if you are going to block/evade tracking and be able to decide if they still want to do business with you as a result. This is how a free market works.

Oh hey, the "growth consultant" thinks we shouldn't have privacy. It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.

this is true in a non malicious way and has basically gone berserk in the realm of complicity
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