Earlier quoted context omitted.
This anti-space exploration position is basically a meme now and is so unoriginal and tiresome. Where's your anger when it comes to movie development, international tourism, stadium construction, the cosmetics industry, and the rest of the endless list of nonsense that is more wasteful and less beneficial than allocating a tiny proportion of Earth's resources towards rocket tech? I hope to hear this cynical take when…
It's a strawman argument. I don't think people are against space exploration. When a dude alone can finance a space program it creates two moral issues: 1. How come a guy who make people pee in bottles have enough money for this? 2. Should space exploration be privatized this way. Of course, you can see no evil here, but that's different from caricaturing legitimate arguments.
Bezos donates $100M each to CNN contributor Van Jones and chef Jose Andres
821–830 of 879 posts
Re: Bezos donates $100M each to CNN contributor Van Jones and chef Jose Andres
#822Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm still thinking that any bigger taxation could decrease potential risk taking and/or investments into new potentially innovative avenues. Maybe there could be a golden taxation point that's higher than it is now, but I also think it's definitely possible that it would work out worse overall for everyone. If there's 1000 to 3 ratio, the things small group of people could organize to build would be far off what indi…
I agree that at some point there will be a decrease in risk taking and investments but I don't think that risk and investments are inherently more important than all other factors. I am also not arguing for 1000:3 or any other specific ratio. The only reason I brought his net worth up is to show the ratio that we have right now (not even including the ratio compared to amazon workes which would be even higher). And e…
I wonder if there are any economic simulations done that would represent the actual world most closely to have something to toy with.
Re: Bezos donates $100M each to CNN contributor Van Jones and chef Jose Andres
#823Earlier quoted context omitted.
This anti-space exploration position is basically a meme now and is so unoriginal and tiresome. Where's your anger when it comes to movie development, international tourism, stadium construction, the cosmetics industry, and the rest of the endless list of nonsense that is more wasteful and less beneficial than allocating a tiny proportion of Earth's resources towards rocket tech? I hope to hear this cynical take when…
It's a strawman argument. I don't think people are against space exploration. When a dude alone can finance a space program it creates two moral issues: 1. How come a guy who make people pee in bottles have enough money for this? 2. Should space exploration be privatized this way. Of course, you can see no evil here, but that's different from caricaturing legitimate arguments.
2. Yes, definitely. Government should step in and run the show only when there's market failure.
Re: Bezos donates $100M each to CNN contributor Van Jones and chef Jose Andres
#824Earlier quoted context omitted.
As someone who thinks it's morally wrong to have billionaires in a society let me try to make an argument why I think so. If a person has a billion dollars it does not exist in a vacuum. It interacts heavily within the economy in which it exists and more importantly with the people who participate in that economy. Think for example the amount of people employed to do work in order to service a billionaire. A vast est…
Ok there is a lot to unpack here and it may need a few comments. First, you seem to conflate being a billionaire with conspicuous spending or otherwise inefficient use of their capital. Once again this is a generalization and many billionaires don’t have these sports cars and estates that you describe. Secondly, you state “I just think the idea of many humans spending their lives in order to satisfy a single human is…
>First, you seem to conflate being a billionaire with conspicuous spending or otherwise inefficient use of their capital. Once again this is a generalization and many billionaires don’t have these sports cars and estates that you describe.
Of course there might be some modest billionaires that lead relatively normal lives. Obviously my arguments do not apply to billionaires that sit idly in their wealth. I could try to make a different case for why that is an issue but I do not have major moral quarrels with that type of individual and have no interest in picking this fight. Though I assume you agree with me that this type of billionaire is a rare one.
>Secondly, you state “I just think the idea of many humans spending their lives in order to satisfy a single human is absurd”...
Excellent point and I can not stress enough how much I agree with you. To be clear, I am not arguing that the principle of the division of labor is bad. Obviously some people need to be software developers and other line cooks. But I am deeply bothered by the fact that I will average 40 hour weeks affording me a great deal more leisure than the person who assembled my laptop, farmed the bananas I eat and sewed the shirts I wear.
This does not mean that the solution is for me to live in the forest and sustain myself on berries. I recognize that this inequity is the result of different economies being in different stages of industrialization. My participation in the global economy will most likely help rather than hurt countries in earlier stages of development. I expect my global peers to join me in a relatively painless and happy life full of leisure as developing countries reach a more mature economic stage. If you tell me that this will never happen and this inequity is permanent, I might have to seriously re-examine my personal moral beliefs.
I have the same attitude towards billionaires. I recognize the historical trajectory that brought them here and for the cheap access to information and technology enabled by the industries that minted the latest set of tech billionaires I consider the deal to be quite good. I can still hold the belief that its morally wrong to have a billionaire class while not advocating for violently dismantling the current societal structure. I want society to become more equitable but I think the more realistic time-frame is in the span of hundreds of years, just as most social progress over the last millenia.
>You also state that “If the billionaire holds majority stakes within prominent industries we are delegating important decisions to opaque power with unknown agendas that we can not hope to influence in meaningful ways.”...
Good point. It can be argued we are better off due to undemocratic decision taken by key industry leaders. By democratizing every decision growth would likely be stifled. But there are middle-grounds. I for example would like some democratic influence over google without necessarily nationalizing it or forcing it into a co-op. Google is the de facto information aggregator for the half the worlds population that has internet access. This is a good thing and is due to decisions by democratically unchecked business leaders. However, its model for delivering information is highly incentivized to maximize ad revenue rather than providing the highest quality information. Philosophically, I believe that when something becomes ubiquitous to a large group of people, those people should have a say in that thing. I think a more democratic google is a moral necessity here which will likely be in detriment to the profit incentives of the shareholders. What this entails in practice is something we could probably argue about for a long time. (I understand that Pichai is not a founder nor a single majority holder of google and barely a billionaire. I choose google to highlight the drawbacks and advantages of democratic vs undemocratic power. Our discussion is about billionaires and not corporate decision making though I hope you can see how my reasoning would apply to undemocratic yet helpful decisions made by billionaires. )
Finally, I would like to state that my desired end goal is not complete 100% mathematically verified equality in all measures. I'm not a Pol Pot-esque collectivist who does not believe in the individual or individual differences. I actually believe a degree of inequity to be necessary for a dynamic society. A billionaire is a different beast than a multi-millionaire. I'm not advocating for a revolution to topple the billionaires. I'm advocating for a conversation about how extreme wealth might undermine the health of our society.
Re: Bezos donates $100M each to CNN contributor Van Jones and chef Jose Andres
#825All the critics lobbing cynicism against Bezos, Branson, and Musk saying, in essence, that their money is better spent here at home reminds me of a wonderful scene from The West Wing when one character asks why we have to go to Mars: "'Cause it's next. For we came out of the cave, and we looked over the hill, and we saw fire. And we crossed the ocean, and we pioneered the West, and we took to the sky. The history of…
Re: Bezos donates $100M each to CNN contributor Van Jones and chef Jose Andres
#826Re: Bezos donates $100M each to CNN contributor Van Jones and chef Jose Andres
#827Earlier quoted context omitted.
> A public space race of billionaires is exactly the kind of thing we should all be hoping for. I'd rather see them paying fair wages and taxes. It's hugely inappropriate that they make billions while their workers struggle to pay rent. It's only possible, because those poor people are too worked out to protest and do something about effectively being slaves. These rockets seem more like modern day pyramids, only dif…
> I'd rather see them paying fair wages and taxes. Unless you're in the "billionaires must not exist" camp, which we could argue about, they'll still be very rich, given the scale and success of their businesses. A net worth of $50 billion vs $150 billion doesn't change all that much, for the U.S. treasury or Bezos. > It's hugely inappropriate that they make billions while their workers struggle to pay rent. There ar…
They should be okay with $10 million. Average worker will never be able to accumulate even $1 million during their lifetime.
> There are many thousands of Amazon workers making six figure salaries.
Amazon has 1,298,000 workers. The 1% you are referring to, does not make Amazon a good company. Furthermore, given how much money Bezos was able to skim, the six figures are still laughable.
> The fact that low skilled jobs pay crap is in no way unique to Amazon
Yes, because we don't have proper regulation - like making sure highest pay is no more than 10x of lowest pay or linking minimum wage to company global revenue (with a minimum threshold).
> and I doubt Bezos or Musk would object for reasons of greed.
They would object, because people on UBI wouldn't have to work in their sweatshops.
> like they can actually make humanity space-faring,
Corporations are not motivated by humanity
> provide world-wide high speed internet to poor villages
To help with surveillance, data mining and control.
> move toxic industries off-world, etc.
Only if it is profitable. More likely they would move banking off-world to shield themselves from paying taxes.
Re: Bezos donates $100M each to CNN contributor Van Jones and chef Jose Andres
#828Earlier quoted context omitted.
> While Musk focuses of space station resupply and satellite launch, in addition to "Mars Missions", Branson and Bezos have fully stated that they are in the business of space tourism. That's kind of a silly argument in my mind. Tesla started out making electric sports cars that cost $100,000+ each. Just because a company focuses on high margin products for the super rich when they are starting off, doesn't mean they…
Sure, but in the automotive world Musk is taken to task plenty when it comes to "more serious" EV's with more moderate performance that appeal to a broader market. He is given credit for popularizing the market, again, thanks to his carnival barker style, but he isn't bringing EV's to the masses. That's a large void that companies like Ford, Volkswagen and Toyota are filling =/
Re: Bezos donates $100M each to CNN contributor Van Jones and chef Jose Andres
#829Earlier quoted context omitted.
Thats an opportunity provided by his parents, not "society". If he owes anyone then it's them.
I’d love to have had parents who could afford to dump $1m into my fledgeling startup. That he did proves he owes others for his success as much as his own wits and hard work.
Re: Bezos donates $100M each to CNN contributor Van Jones and chef Jose Andres
#830Earlier quoted context omitted.
> This is unbelievably pessimistic. It's not pessimistic, it's realistic. It's just that what the parent poster means by "how we survive as a species" and what you mean are...different things. Going to the moon, going to mars, are necessary for the survival of our species...on a 100,000 year time horizon. At some point, something catastrophic may happen to earth. An asteroid impact, or a Gamma Ray Burst, or some othe…
First, I favor space exploration and think we, as a society, should spend more money on it than we do now. Second, calling this 'realistic' is nonsense: > It's not pessimistic, it's realistic. [...] on a 100,000 year time horizon. It has been 65 years since Sputnik was launched, so you are projecting out 1,565x that duration into the future. I'm sure you picked a nice, big, round number, but I think it's really impor…
I agree about the time-horizons. Dealing with climate change is an immediate and urgent priority, whereas the time-horizon for becoming multi-planetary and (eventually) multi-stellar are much longer.
That being said, it's all probabilistic, so it's not like there's a bright line when we need to be multi-planetary. A planet-killer could hit earth tomorrow, and the human race would be extinct. So, if we delay becoming a (self-sufficient) multi-planetary species by 200 years we increase the window of risk by that much time.
And there will always be current challenges that we face on earth that we could address before investing resources in becoming multi-planetary. And becoming multi-planetary itself will take a long time.