Don’t Apologize: If the mob comes for you, stand up for yourself • Hacker News Board

Re: Don’t Apologize: If the mob comes for you, stand up for yourself

#91

Post by Traster » Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 12:33 PM UTC

>To give such a forceful statement on the nation’s most-watched late-night talk show, it’s fair to assume that Moreno must have understood the “colorism” debate and given her position serious consideration. Why, then, was she so quick to flip-flop, retract her statement, and atone? Occam’s Razor would tell us that her apology, like Miranda’s, was simply a capitulation to avoid the internet’s wrath.

I think this is such bad reasoning. This is nothing to do with Occam's razor, this is just the author making random assumptions about what happened without knowing the facts.

In most of the cases that the author talks about, they're literally just bringing their own assumptions about what happened and then deciding someone shouldn't apologize. PJ Vogt wasn't cancelled by a mob, he was cancelled by his colleagues for legitimate complaints they had, and he was absolutely right to reflect on his own behaviour. This article however, just seeks to minimize what happened to one accusation (anti-unioinization) which clearly was not the only problem, and then go "Oh that's not so bad". And he repeats this over and over, people aren't criticizing Andy Ngo for "documenting the worst excesses of the far left".

It's just so weird for a person to repeatedly look at someone apologize for something and say "No, actually I know better, they shouldn't apologize".

I actually think there are cases where the mob is wrong - "Bean Dad" is a great example. But the examples in these cases just seem like such weird right wing hobby horses.

Re: Don’t Apologize: If the mob comes for you, stand up for yourself

#92

Post by Leparamour » Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 12:44 PM UTC

jjmorrison wrote: post #47

Werewolf255 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm just following the OPs line of reasoning.

Dr King would have, and always did use love. Not hate. Collective action is not hate, and change doesn't require hate. Mobs today act out of anger and hate. And that creates more anger and more hate. It's hard to love people that you perceive as evil - but wow is it ever powerful when you do. Daryl Davis is such a great example of this as another user pointed out.

I'm pretty sure the mobs in question consider themselves "fair" and "tolerant". It's just framing oneself as the good side that stands against the evil "intolerants" hereby justifying the means in one's eyes.

MLK's approach of "love" (the carrot) also wouldn't have worked without Malcolm X and the Black Panthers' threat of violence (the stick).

Re: Don’t Apologize: If the mob comes for you, stand up for yourself

#93

Post by hhhhhdsgs » Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 1:04 PM UTC

orionblastar wrote: post #10

Not much you can do if the mob gets you canceled and fired from your job. Might as well stand up to the bullies in the mob. Yes a mob is full of bullies who attack someone for being different in some way or have a different opinion. I already got downvoted twice with this message.

Maybe its hard to have a honest conversation about left wing cancel culture mobs on ultra left wing hacker news.

Re: Don’t Apologize: If the mob comes for you, stand up for yourself

#94

Post by incrudible » Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 1:06 PM UTC

nicklecompte wrote: post #22

I don’t want to step into this particular minefield (nor should any progressive, really) but I thought this tiny part of the argument was unusually bad reasoning: > To give such a forceful statement on the nation’s most-watched late-night talk show, it’s fair to assume that Moreno must have understood the “colorism” debate and given her position serious consideration. Who honestly believes that people on Steven Colbe…

Are you planning to get that editor for your comments?

Re: Don’t Apologize: If the mob comes for you, stand up for yourself

#95

Post by nicklecompte » Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 1:32 PM UTC

incrudible wrote: post #94

nicklecompte wrote: post #22

I don’t want to step into this particular minefield (nor should any progressive, really) but I thought this tiny part of the argument was unusually bad reasoning: > To give such a forceful statement on the nation’s most-watched late-night talk show, it’s fair to assume that Moreno must have understood the “colorism” debate and given her position serious consideration. Who honestly believes that people on Steven Colbe…

Are you planning to get that editor for your comments?

I’m not planning to publish my comments in a newsletter and ask people to pay me for it. So I am really not sure what the point of your remark is - unless, of course, this is a childish attempt at an insult.

Re: Don’t Apologize: If the mob comes for you, stand up for yourself

#96

Post by UncleMeat » Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 1:46 PM UTC

megaman821 wrote: post #40

Werewolf255 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tell me more about how Dr. King wouldn't have used collective action as a catalyst for change.

Are you trying to compare MLK's rousing and elegant speeches with the nastiness that gets sent over Twitter by these mobs?

Contemporaries certainly did not consider MLK's actions to be "rousing and elegant". He was cast as a rabble-rouser and a complainer by the establishment and called responsible for property damage done during the civil rights protests.

It is only in retrospect that MLK has been adopted by the establishment as the "good" protestor and his voice has been twisted to support a "colorblindness" that he never supported.

Re: Don’t Apologize: If the mob comes for you, stand up for yourself

#97

Post by jollofricepeas » Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 2:29 PM UTC

fzil wrote: post #71

LegitShady wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Andy Ngo is a gay Asian man. Any claims of support of white supremacy seem like those calling Ben Shapiro a nazi - ridiculous on their face and guilt by association that doesn’t stand any test of logic beyond grossly painting someone with bad words because they don’t want him to be able to speak credibly. Perhaps the people who aren’t genuine are those who make opposition to antifa the same thing as ‘favour of white…

That's just weird, does being of jewish heritage make you incapable of being a nazi? There's certainly a ton of polish and slavic nazis. What does Andy being a gay Asian man have anything to do with the claims of him being a white supremacist?

I’ll just leave this here.

- https://krebsonsecurity.com/2020/11/body-found-in-canada-ide...

- https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Miller_(political_ad...

It’s totally a possibility for someone to be a “minority” or Jewish and also a white supremacist, anti-immigrant, or far-rightist.

Re: Don’t Apologize: If the mob comes for you, stand up for yourself

#98

Post by salt-thrower » Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 2:33 PM UTC

LegitShady wrote: post #57

Werewolf255 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anybody is free to have an opinion on Andy Ngo but calling him, with complete credulity, someone who "became noteworthy by documenting the excesses of the far left" without mentioning his vocal and widespread reporting in favor of white supremacy, with the Proud Boys being the most prominent example, doesn't make me think the author is being genuine. If the article had a more nuanced view as opposed to pushing a poin…

Andy Ngo is a gay Asian man. Any claims of support of white supremacy seem like those calling Ben Shapiro a nazi - ridiculous on their face and guilt by association that doesn’t stand any test of logic beyond grossly painting someone with bad words because they don’t want him to be able to speak credibly. Perhaps the people who aren’t genuine are those who make opposition to antifa the same thing as ‘favour of white…

Tokenism is not a defense against someone promoting hateful ideology.

Re: Don’t Apologize: If the mob comes for you, stand up for yourself

#99

Post by incrudible » Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 2:34 PM UTC

nicklecompte wrote: post #95

incrudible wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you planning to get that editor for your comments?

I’m not planning to publish my comments in a newsletter and ask people to pay me for it. So I am really not sure what the point of your remark is - unless, of course, this is a childish attempt at an insult.

You set yourself up for it. According to you, one of the following must be true:

- You are not smart.

- You are smart. You do not have an editor. Therefore, you will write transparently stupid things.

There is no contingency on writing a newsletter.

Re: Don’t Apologize: If the mob comes for you, stand up for yourself

#100

Post by giantg2 » Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 2:34 PM UTC

It's easy to say that one should voice their opinion and not retract things. It can be costly though. I've always been one to speak my mind when others won't, but the older I get the more I realize that it is often best to keep your head down and stay quiet. I would likely be further along in my career if I had just learnt to be a 'yes man'.