A YouTube chat about chess got flagged for hate speech • Hacker News Board

Re: A YouTube chat about chess got flagged for hate speech

#51

Post by crvdgc » Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 3:04 AM UTC

hirundo wrote: post #21

We need a word or phrase for this phenomenon, where we attempt to substitute human pattern recognition with algorithms that just aren't up to the job. Facebook moderation, Tesla Full Self Driving, the War Games movie, arrests for mistaken facial identification. It's becoming an increasingly dystopic force in our lives and will likely get much worse before getting even worse. So it needs a label. Maybe there's a ten s…

Scunthorpe problem [1] is used to describe the false positives for auto filters, which are often results of naive substring matching. In a way, the current problem is similar, but on the semantic level.

However, it doesn't cover other cases for other AI mistakes you mentioned, like self-driving.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scunthorpe_problem

Re: A YouTube chat about chess got flagged for hate speech

#52

Post by soheil » Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 3:04 AM UTC

kleer001 wrote: post #25

hyperhopper wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my opinion, that might be a sign that the idea of drawing abstract connections between words and concepts, that are several layers of indirection apart, may be going too far. Yeah using language that upsets people is bad, but if you allow enough layers between words and concepts, _everything_ can be argued to be offensive for one reason or another. Or will be soon once something else becomes a hot button issue.

> using language that upsets people is bad Shouldn't be. Intent should be the grounds for upset, intent only. Otherwise you get a Euphemism Treadmill, and that's a goddamn fucking waste of time.

thinks the case of yelling fire in a movie theater jokingly

Re: A YouTube chat about chess got flagged for hate speech

#53

Post by d110af5ccf » Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 3:05 AM UTC

fighterpilot wrote: post #22

SilverRed wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First and second implies a hierarchy and uneven power balance. Both players should have their turns simultaneously.

I thought of this and realized it'd actually be a fun game. Both players write down their next move and then move simultaneously once both are ready. To avoid race conditions, if a player moves a piece that is to be taken by the opponent's move, then that player has saved that piece with that move. That creates an interesting dynamic where you may not wish to take the most valuable piece if you predict the other play…

How would two pieces moving to the same square be resolved? Both lost, or ... ? Regardless of the specifics, it would create a very complicated (but potentially interesting) dynamic when moving any valuable piece within a contested region.

Re: A YouTube chat about chess got flagged for hate speech

#54

Post by api » Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 3:05 AM UTC

This reminds me of a story from a previous era of automated content moderation...

When I was a student at the University of Cincinnati, I was a member of a group called LARC which stood for Laboratory for Recreational Computing. The main purpose of LARC was to get the University of Cincinnati to subsidize our yearly trip to DEFCON, but I digress.

The UC mail servers, or at least the ones where the LARC mailing list was hosted, had some kind of stupid search and replace censorship to replace naughty words with cleaner equivalents. The cleaner equivalents were in ALL CAPS of course.

So a few members of LARC were working on a project to build a classical arcade cocktail table game out of Linux and MAME and some other stuff. I don't remember the details. All I remember is that the mail server transformed this into the "MALE GENITALIAtail table".

This became its official name. I think the MALE GENITALIAtail table was eventually installed in the student union.

Re: A YouTube chat about chess got flagged for hate speech

#55

Post by jMyles » Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 3:05 AM UTC

hirundo wrote: post #21

We need a word or phrase for this phenomenon, where we attempt to substitute human pattern recognition with algorithms that just aren't up to the job. Facebook moderation, Tesla Full Self Driving, the War Games movie, arrests for mistaken facial identification. It's becoming an increasingly dystopic force in our lives and will likely get much worse before getting even worse. So it needs a label. Maybe there's a ten s…

Artificial Unintelligence? Artificial Stupidity?

Re: A YouTube chat about chess got flagged for hate speech

#56

Post by soheil » Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 3:07 AM UTC

SilverRed wrote: post #13

shp0ngle wrote: post #5

Well. The speech police started changing "blacklist" and "whitelist" in programming context, even when those had no racist history; maybe it's time to change it in chess. (After all, white always goes first, that is not very PC.) Rename "black" and "white" to "second player" and "first player".

First and second implies a hierarchy and uneven power balance. Both players should have their turns simultaneously.

Why not try to be more inclusive and have each piece with its own color?

Re: A YouTube chat about chess got flagged for hate speech

#57

Post by ma2rten » Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 3:07 AM UTC

shp0ngle wrote: post #5

Well. The speech police started changing "blacklist" and "whitelist" in programming context, even when those had no racist history; maybe it's time to change it in chess. (After all, white always goes first, that is not very PC.) Rename "black" and "white" to "second player" and "first player".

Could we do some affirmative action and let black go first?

Re: A YouTube chat about chess got flagged for hate speech

#58

Post by computerlab » Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 3:07 AM UTC

hirundo wrote: post #21

We need a word or phrase for this phenomenon, where we attempt to substitute human pattern recognition with algorithms that just aren't up to the job. Facebook moderation, Tesla Full Self Driving, the War Games movie, arrests for mistaken facial identification. It's becoming an increasingly dystopic force in our lives and will likely get much worse before getting even worse. So it needs a label. Maybe there's a ten s…

The concept of "so-so automation" [1] seems relevant: innovation that allows a business or organization to eliminate human employees, but doesn't result in overall productivity gains or cost savings for society that could then be redistributed to the laid-off employees.

I think so-so automation often is used places where there's a lot of zero-sum conflict between workers and management, or where the work itself causes a lot of negative human externalities. (This can be a good thing: it's probably okay to settle for a "worse result" from an automated system if it eliminates a lot of physical or psychological harm to people...some content moderation issues probably fall under this case, but not this one.)

[1] https://mitsloan.mit.edu/ideas-made-to-matter/lure-so-so-tec...

Re: A YouTube chat about chess got flagged for hate speech

#59

Post by mc32 » Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 3:08 AM UTC

MontyCarloHall wrote: post #47

mc32 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or cooler heads prevail like at the Académie Française who recognize that sexual genders are completely unrelated to grammatical genders despite what activists try to say. So we may just get some people who push back and tell people that chess isn’t racist and it’s people who are injecting race where it doesn’t exist (such as here in chess) who are the problem.

Have cooler heads prevailed in this regard? “Progressive” Americans degendering Spanish by referring to Latino people as “Latinx” seems to be going as strong as ever, despite the protests of actual native Spanish speakers. In their haste to appear progressive, people who say “Latinx” are ironically engaging in linguistic colonialism, as it were.

But that’s the problem with progressives. They trip over themselves trying to be at the front. And yes, I’ve asked people of Latin descent if they use latinx in their speech to which they respond no and that it’s a North American invention and that in Spanish it’s Latino for sing male, Latinos for plural males or combo males and females, and Latina for singular female and latinas for all female but never latinx for any combination of the above.

Re: A YouTube chat about chess got flagged for hate speech

#60

Post by jcims » Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 3:09 AM UTC

hirundo wrote: post #21

We need a word or phrase for this phenomenon, where we attempt to substitute human pattern recognition with algorithms that just aren't up to the job. Facebook moderation, Tesla Full Self Driving, the War Games movie, arrests for mistaken facial identification. It's becoming an increasingly dystopic force in our lives and will likely get much worse before getting even worse. So it needs a label. Maybe there's a ten s…

It's basically perception and reaction without cognition.

In the natural world we would call that instinct. So maybe 'artificial instinct' if we want to keep 'AI' or 'synthetic instinct' because I think it sounds better.