Don’t Apologize: If the mob comes for you, stand up for yourself • Hacker News Board

Re: Don’t Apologize: If the mob comes for you, stand up for yourself

#51

Post by panny » Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 1:25 AM UTC

l0b0 wrote: post #45

panny wrote: post #33

>Today, the mob acts primarily through social media, meaning that the pile-on can come for anybody, at any time, with little to no warning. It should be stated that this mob is typically comprised of bot accounts. It's not even a real mob. It's just some government or group who wants to peer pressure you with internet good boy points.

Any large enough pile-on, whether real or orchestrated, pulls in real people with nothing better to do than being outraged at things they have little to no insight into. The bots are just there until the attention is self-sustaining.

Sure, that's one possible dynamic. The more I see, the more I believe the empty internet theory though.

Re: Don’t Apologize: If the mob comes for you, stand up for yourself

#52

Post by jmull » Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 1:27 AM UTC

I don't think this is great advice.

You can think about the mob coming after you in three groups:

(1) People who aren't listening. Their minds are closed. They are angry or mean or otherwise won't listen no matter what you say. They don't care if you apologize or not.

(2) People with an agenda against you. They are going to keep going after you whether you apologize or not. But they probably actually like it better if you don't -- that inflames the conflict, keeping it going or expanding it. Their agenda is usually served the bigger and longer the conflict lasts. Also, as long as the conflict is going strong, the people from (1) will keep chiming in, but they will lose interest when it dies down.

(3) People who were actually offended or hurt but have an open mind. These are the people you can reach with an apology. These are the people you need to talk to to understand what actually offended or hurt them. You might be able to do even better than an apology and understand where things went wrong. Remember, if you're not a dick, you don't actually want to hurt other people. This is your opportunity to stop doing that. (And if you are a dick, maybe you deserve your internet mob, at least partially?)

So: Talk to people. Apologize sincerely if you can find a way to do it. You won't stop the mob, but you might take some of the energy out of it and you can stop hurting some people.

Re: Don’t Apologize: If the mob comes for you, stand up for yourself

#53

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 1:32 AM UTC

deft wrote: post #11

IfOnlyYouKnew wrote: post #3

The mob isn't coming for you. If it is, your reaction should maybe depend on what the mob is criticising. The mob is people. They aren't always terribly smart, neither alone or in groups. But it does happen that individuals make mistakes, and that people notice them. What is this? "Self Help for Dummies, Who May or May Not Also Be Racists"?

The shtick that cancel culture and "the twitter mob" don't even exist is falling apart, because insisting there is no war in ba sing se only works until a critical mass sees the evidence for themselves. Your argument is ridiculous and I'm sure you realize this. Again, I'm sure you know this already, but most people who are cancelled are innocent of any wrongdoing, and very few involve racism. Did you read the article…

[deleted]

Re: Don’t Apologize: If the mob comes for you, stand up for yourself

#54

Post by aerosmile » Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 1:38 AM UTC

iamnotwhoiam wrote: post #31

aerosmile wrote: post #14

Winston Marshall had to leave Mumford and Sons to be able to stand up for himself. For anyone willing to throw away a life's worth of investment into their career in order to speak their mind, that's a good piece of advice. For everyone else, apologize. Or better yet, avoid getting into hot water. I have found HN to be a great barometer for what's "acceptable" and what isn't. Recently, I learned a valuable lesson - I…

It really looks to me like someone disagreed with you and you took it very personally. You jumped to claiming “offense” first. I think you should reread your thread in a few days when you’ve cooled off.

It's always good advice to reread things later. But please know that I would never take anything on the internet personally. I am grateful for the insight that came out of that conversation, and see it as one of the benefits of actively participating on HN.

Re: Don’t Apologize: If the mob comes for you, stand up for yourself

#55

Post by eclipxe » Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 1:44 AM UTC

LegitShady wrote: post #39

gameswithgo wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you stopped and maybe talked to someone you respect about these beliefs? When everyone else thinks you are being an asshole sometimes it is because you are. Ive certainly had to face that at times in my life.

Alternately maybe the overwhelming social pressure doesn’t necessarily make an opinion true, just popular, or everyone else who agrees is just as scared to risk their careers etc as he is.

You are free to voice your opinion. Society is free to provide feedback to you on those opinions. If you have an opinion that a sufficient cohort of your peers in society feel is out of bounds for where society is headed or not compatible with the prevailing world view, society will provide corrective consequences/accountability. The system is working as it should.

Re: Don’t Apologize: If the mob comes for you, stand up for yourself

#56

Post by rektide » Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 1:45 AM UTC

jopsen wrote: post #43

livinginfear wrote: post #23

Likening modern 'woke' mob outrage on Twitter to Maoist China is the correct analogy. The purpose of being 'cancelled' is not any kind of real social justice. It's the enforcement of an ideological orthodoxy. Never apologise to the mob. Even a superficial understanding of game theory shows you that you have nothing to gain from the self-flagellation involved in a public apology. Remember, You'll never be forgiven. I'…

> Likening modern 'woke' mob outrage on Twitter to Maoist China is the correct analogy. I would personally rather be cancelled on social media, than having my breathing cancelled. It's should be possible to disagree and criticize without analogies to various atrocities involving mass murder. Drawing such parallels is a form of cancelling, as it effectively prevents any defense or discourse on the subject. Whatever "c…

weird days. a lot of complainy people conflating government authoritarianism with the activity of private entities/personal citizens. this is mirrored in the right's complaints about private services "censoring" them, as if we are citizen's under their power & protection. similarly a bunch of people lambasting you online being conflated with government/state use of power against you... wild days.

Re: Don’t Apologize: If the mob comes for you, stand up for yourself

#57

Post by LegitShady » Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 2:00 AM UTC

Werewolf255 wrote: post #50

LegitShady wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please explain what Andy Ngo did that nobody should be able to have a different opinion of him without you dismissing him? JK Rowling is a billionaire who doesn’t need much in the way of connections anymore, but she is certainly constantly attacked and abused, and has lost many opportunities for standing up for what she believes in. That you don’t care about it and think that amazon still sells her books doesn’t mean…

Anybody is free to have an opinion on Andy Ngo but calling him, with complete credulity, someone who "became noteworthy by documenting the excesses of the far left" without mentioning his vocal and widespread reporting in favor of white supremacy, with the Proud Boys being the most prominent example, doesn't make me think the author is being genuine. If the article had a more nuanced view as opposed to pushing a poin…

Andy Ngo is a gay Asian man. Any claims of support of white supremacy seem like those calling Ben Shapiro a nazi - ridiculous on their face and guilt by association that doesn’t stand any test of logic beyond grossly painting someone with bad words because they don’t want him to be able to speak credibly.

Perhaps the people who aren’t genuine are those who make opposition to antifa the same thing as ‘favour of white supremacy’.

I don’t think we’re going to come to an agreement.

Re: Don’t Apologize: If the mob comes for you, stand up for yourself

#58

Post by ThrowawayR2 » Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 2:03 AM UTC

eclipxe wrote: post #55

LegitShady wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alternately maybe the overwhelming social pressure doesn’t necessarily make an opinion true, just popular, or everyone else who agrees is just as scared to risk their careers etc as he is.

You are free to voice your opinion. Society is free to provide feedback to you on those opinions. If you have an opinion that a sufficient cohort of your peers in society feel is out of bounds for where society is headed or not compatible with the prevailing world view, society will provide corrective consequences/accountability. The system is working as it should.

> "If you have an opinion that a sufficient cohort of your peers in society feel is out of bounds for where society is headed or not compatible with the prevailing world view, society will provide corrective consequences/accountability."

Society used to "provide corrective consequences/accountability" for atheism/agnosticism, advocating for socialism and workers' rights, advocating for the abolition of slavery and equal rights for PoC, advocating for LGBTQ rights, and so forth since all of those were violently opposed by the majority of society. By using the argument, the parent poster and anyone else who uses it implies that they would not only would have been okay with suppressing those rights but also would have enthusiastically supported "consequences" for those rights advocates if they'd been around in the era before those people became protected classes. If this doesn't make it obvious why that argument has zero validity, nothing will.

What's more the "it's A-OK for society to beat you up for going against the majority" argument is an argument born of _conservatism_, since it literally argues for preserving the status quo. It's stunning to hear people supposedly on the left repeating it.

Re: Don’t Apologize: If the mob comes for you, stand up for yourself

#59

Post by LegitShady » Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 2:03 AM UTC

eclipxe wrote: post #55

LegitShady wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alternately maybe the overwhelming social pressure doesn’t necessarily make an opinion true, just popular, or everyone else who agrees is just as scared to risk their careers etc as he is.

You are free to voice your opinion. Society is free to provide feedback to you on those opinions. If you have an opinion that a sufficient cohort of your peers in society feel is out of bounds for where society is headed or not compatible with the prevailing world view, society will provide corrective consequences/accountability. The system is working as it should.

I see you don’t have any understanding that in previous times, being gay had similar stigmas, which was obviously correct according to you - it was just society providing corrective consequences.

It’s a bit of a trip to hear people who think they are progressive also think mobs harrassing people is ‘corrective consequences’. It’s just mob rule. The actual nazis attacking people in Germany in the 1930s would have been ‘corrective accountability’ according to your theory.

We won’t ever come to an agreement. I think your point of view is repugnant.

Re: Don’t Apologize: If the mob comes for you, stand up for yourself

#60

Post by Grieving » Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 2:14 AM UTC

rektide wrote: post #56

jopsen wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Likening modern 'woke' mob outrage on Twitter to Maoist China is the correct analogy. I would personally rather be cancelled on social media, than having my breathing cancelled. It's should be possible to disagree and criticize without analogies to various atrocities involving mass murder. Drawing such parallels is a form of cancelling, as it effectively prevents any defense or discourse on the subject. Whatever "c…

weird days. a lot of complainy people conflating government authoritarianism with the activity of private entities/personal citizens. this is mirrored in the right's complaints about private services "censoring" them, as if we are citizen's under their power & protection. similarly a bunch of people lambasting you online being conflated with government/state use of power against you... wild days.

They are absolutely not complaining about private citizens lambasting them online. It's entrenched monopolies in cooperation with the state itself that work to ruin right-wing (and left-wing in the case of TERFs, Deep Greens, etc.) dissidents' lives and deny their ability to speak. For instance, banks are closing their accounts for opposing the status quo. Banking is so strictly regulated, incestuous, and intertwined with the state that innovation is notoriously difficult; and innovation from an explicitly adversarial entity with no institutional support is nearly impossible.

What's more, if one lives in a red state surrounded by people similar to them on the political spectrum, they'll still have their employers harassed to keep them from holding down a job. It's not their peers "cancelling" them; it's a minority of people with wildly different worldviews from wildly different parts of the country. It's not all that different from swatting.