Why We Do Pushups • Hacker News Board

Re: Why We Do Pushups

#141

Post by cema » Thu, Jul 21, 2011, 4:56 PM UTC

roel_v wrote: post #138

cema wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The military takes a couple months to make you willing to sacrifice your life for a group of what were recently strangers. My experience is completely opposite. Perhaps I was in a wrong military (I was: USSR, mid-1980s), mandatory conscription, culture clash. Mandatory conscription is similar to arranged marriages, but not to how jobs are staffed, so the analogy may not hold here. In case my management decides to do…

Conscripts are not at all like 'proper' soldiers. Conscripts are just there to sit out their time. You can't compare that to training professional, actual combat-ready soldiers (i.e., not truck drivers and radio operators - although of course they all go through the same basic training. The amount of time that is put into taking away individual identify and replacing it with a group mentality in combat troops like e.…

  Conscripts are not at all like 'proper' soldiers. 
  Conscripts are just there to sit out their time.

The soldier is sleeping, the service is going on. Of course. And yet, that's how most of the armies of the world are. That how the US army was, to a large extent, during the Vietnam war. (But also during WWII.)

I spent two years of service performing mostly bullshit tasks (or doing nothing). When I was in training I received some kind of basic education of driving, uh, amphibious transporter medium - modified (ПТС-М, плавающий транспортёр средний - модифицированный). Was kind of fun.

All right, it's completely off-topic now.

Re: Why We Do Pushups

#142

Post by georgieporgie » Thu, Jul 21, 2011, 6:27 PM UTC

joelrunyon wrote: post #128

georgieporgie wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are utterly wrong about this. If you were so inclined, you could find all the information you desire about injuries caused by unbalanced musculature. But you seem like the invincible type who's going to ignore caution, so good luck to you.

Wrong about what? You don't HAVE to hunch, you can stretch, and I said I would like to see studies of people hurt from ten pushups a day. If you have them, please share. If not, I'll keep listening to my body, doing pushups, and properly stretching safely. Have a good day!

You are wrong about your ridiculous universal assertions. Ten pushups a day never hurt anybody? What basis do you have for this, other than ignorance?

Even in the case of minimal physical exertion, neglecting muscular balance will lead to injury. Stretching, while good, will not overcome muscular imbalance. How many people do you know who do any back-specific exercise?

As for posture, look at any of the photos that make it up on HN, such as photos of new startup locations. I haven't seen a single person in any of the photos sitting with proper posture. In over a decade of professional work experience, I have only ever seen one person sitting with correct posture, and he was an ex-Olympic athlete.

Are you aware, by the way, that shirts are cut differently now than in the past? The shoulders are rotated forward, because that's how people carry themselves now. People, on average, simply do not maintain proper posture. It requires concerted effort, stretching, and, usually, focused weight training.

Re: Why We Do Pushups

#143

Post by georgieporgie » Thu, Jul 21, 2011, 6:33 PM UTC

tjogin wrote: post #135

dredmorbius wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not at all. Look up kyphosis and upper cross syndrome. Any time you're doing strength training, you want to balance your movements. If you're doing push (presses, push-ups), do pulls (rows, pull-ups, inverted pull-ups). Work your legs and your upper body. Do bilateral and unilateral movements (single arm or leg). Do strength and cardio. Mind your exercise and your diet. Oh: and rest and recovery are also key. For man…

That might have been a risk if the team were doing bench presses, but pushups is not going to build any significant amount of muscle.

Pushups most certainly will build significant muscle.

The point, however, isn't the muscle size. It's the imbalance in muscular strength and tightness. Yes, stretching will help, but given that the majority of people do nothing to strengthen their upper back, they will develop a significant muscular imbalance from doing mere pushups.

Re: Why We Do Pushups

#144

Post by tjogin » Thu, Jul 21, 2011, 9:37 PM UTC

georgieporgie wrote: post #143

tjogin wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That might have been a risk if the team were doing bench presses, but pushups is not going to build any significant amount of muscle.

Pushups most certainly will build significant muscle. The point, however, isn't the muscle size. It's the imbalance in muscular strength and tightness. Yes, stretching will help, but given that the majority of people do nothing to strengthen their upper back, they will develop a significant muscular imbalance from doing mere pushups.

To facilitate continuous muscle growth you need to continuously increase the resistance over time, and you need to do so within about 8-12 repetitions per set to stimulate hypertrophy. In simple terms, you need to push your max all the time; as you get stronger and develop more muscle, you need to keep increasing the resistance to reach the next level. This is very well established in scientific studies.

Simple logic dictates that this is is impossible with pushups. You cannot change the resistance without changing what muscles you activate, and an averagely built male can do more than 8-12 pushups per set from the very get go. The only way forward is to increase the amount of pushups you do in one go, and that throws hypertrophy out the window.

This is why pushups is a rather useless exercise, beside the fact that it's difficult to do correctly and causes injuries (doing them on your palms can fuck up your rotator cuff, and doing them on your knuckles can fuck up your hands and wrists).

But even without scientific proof, I think most people have this experience with pushups (whether they've thought about it consciously or not): the people who do them are rarely very big, they're the thin traditional martial-arts type, at best.

Re: Why We Do Pushups

#145

Post by dredmorbius » Fri, Jul 22, 2011, 3:08 AM UTC

joelrunyon wrote: post #139

dredmorbius wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not at all. Look up kyphosis and upper cross syndrome. Any time you're doing strength training, you want to balance your movements. If you're doing push (presses, push-ups), do pulls (rows, pull-ups, inverted pull-ups). Work your legs and your upper body. Do bilateral and unilateral movements (single arm or leg). Do strength and cardio. Mind your exercise and your diet. Oh: and rest and recovery are also key. For man…

So you're saying balanced workouts are better than just pushups alone. I agree. But, in lieu of being able to do a full body workout at your desk, I think pushups are a good alternative to keep the blood flowing. Just be conscious to stretch occasionally.

I'd suggest something like burpees as a better alternative. Whole-body movement, may incorporate push-ups, but you're also getting a full triple extension (ankle, knee, hip), and at least some posterior-chain activation.

If you're doing other movements at other times (including rows), the push-ups are fine. You don't have to balance your movements at the same time -- alternating days or workouts would be sufficient.

Re: Why We Do Pushups

#146

Post by dredmorbius » Fri, Jul 22, 2011, 3:19 AM UTC

tjogin wrote: post #144

georgieporgie wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pushups most certainly will build significant muscle. The point, however, isn't the muscle size. It's the imbalance in muscular strength and tightness. Yes, stretching will help, but given that the majority of people do nothing to strengthen their upper back, they will develop a significant muscular imbalance from doing mere pushups.

To facilitate continuous muscle growth you need to continuously increase the resistance over time, and you need to do so within about 8-12 repetitions per set to stimulate hypertrophy. In simple terms, you need to push your max all the time; as you get stronger and develop more muscle, you need to keep increasing the resistance to reach the next level. This is very well established in scientific studies. Simple logic…

Training modalities differ from just the 8-12 reps range. Check out the Wikipedia Strength Training article for a good overview. You can get varying responses with reps ranging from 1 to 30 or more (with appropriate scaling of resistance).

The disadvantage of push-ups from a training perspective is that it's hard to progress with them (increase resistance), though this can be done by changing body angle, changing hand position, adding weight, or changing to a more challenging variant (say planche push-ups).

The point that I and others have been making is that a naive and uninformed approach toward exercise and fitness may provide few if any benefits, could exacerbate an existing imbalance, and really shouldn't be touted as a genius inspiration. Much as, say, a naive and uninformed approach toward technology often has corresponding / similar / analogous negative outcomes.

Push-ups are fine, in the right balance with other movements. They're not a complete exercise routine of themselves.

As for getting big on push-ups, there are always exceptions. Hershel Walker comes to mind as a calisthenics devotee.

Re: Why We Do Pushups

#147

Post by tjogin » Fri, Jul 22, 2011, 9:05 AM UTC

dredmorbius wrote: post #146

tjogin wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To facilitate continuous muscle growth you need to continuously increase the resistance over time, and you need to do so within about 8-12 repetitions per set to stimulate hypertrophy. In simple terms, you need to push your max all the time; as you get stronger and develop more muscle, you need to keep increasing the resistance to reach the next level. This is very well established in scientific studies. Simple logic…

Training modalities differ from just the 8-12 reps range. Check out the Wikipedia Strength Training article for a good overview. You can get varying responses with reps ranging from 1 to 30 or more (with appropriate scaling of resistance). The disadvantage of push-ups from a training perspective is that it's hard to progress with them (increase resistance), though this can be done by changing body angle, changing han…

Pushups is a terrible exercise, for sure, since it doesn't build muscle and is prone to injury. The only reason it doesn't screw up your rotator cuff very quickly is because the resistance is so low; had it been better at building muscle (i.e. more resistance, on level with bench presses) your rotator cuff would tear much sooner. Injury wise, pushups' saving grace is that it is such a bad exercise.

Doing 30 repetitions in a set is a surefire way to stagnate in your muscular development. This has been proven time and time again in scientific studies.

But whatever, let's just agree to disagree here. I'll continue to side with the scientific studies done in hypertrophy, and you continue believing in pushups.

Re: Why We Do Pushups

#148

Post by dredmorbius » Fri, Jul 22, 2011, 8:28 PM UTC

tjogin wrote: post #147

dredmorbius wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Training modalities differ from just the 8-12 reps range. Check out the Wikipedia Strength Training article for a good overview. You can get varying responses with reps ranging from 1 to 30 or more (with appropriate scaling of resistance). The disadvantage of push-ups from a training perspective is that it's hard to progress with them (increase resistance), though this can be done by changing body angle, changing han…

Pushups is a terrible exercise, for sure, since it doesn't build muscle and is prone to injury. The only reason it doesn't screw up your rotator cuff very quickly is because the resistance is so low; had it been better at building muscle (i.e. more resistance, on level with bench presses) your rotator cuff would tear much sooner. Injury wise, pushups' saving grace is that it is such a bad exercise. Doing 30 repetitio…

The key question wasn't whether or not push-ups will develop significant muscle mass. It's whether or not they're going to compound a very likely existing syndrome (upper cross syndrome / kyphosis) in a team of programmers / tech geeks.

Push-ups are sufficiently effective that they'll at best make the problem worse. Any untrained individual doing any resistance movement consistently will make gains in strength and muscle size (Google Mark Rippetoe's "The Novice Effect" or discussions of training complexity vs. training age). Sure, you'll plateau after a few months, but you're still going to be ahead of a very large share of the sedentary population. And you're doing nothing to address the intrinsic imbalance between anterior and dorsal and muscular development and overall tension.

Re: Why We Do Pushups

#149

Post by tapvt » Sun, Jul 24, 2011, 7:22 AM UTC

It seems to me that this is neither a dumb idea, nor hostile, nor mandatory. I know for a fact that working long hours to meet tight deadlines is a challenge for anyone.

A quick round of push-ups, or other exercise, can open the mind to new possibilities, opportunities, and solutions. The diversion could very well help to break the road-blocking thought patterns that often crop up when one is faced with tough problems.

Beyond that, it seems to me that such a practice builds solidarity in the team and inspires the participants to push for their best result, and to improve over the course of future sessions (iterations, perhaps?). I cannot see how fostering such a spirit could be a bad thing, especially in the context of a tech startup.

No responsible person would force a co-worker or employee to damage their health through participation, nor to participate if they did not feel comfortable doing so. The implication that the author would advocate or enforce the exercise to the contrary seems nit-picky and contentious.

Isn't the benefit of the push-ups at least a bit greater than that of the often-present case of beers in the office fridge, especially when the practice becomes a regular part of the culture?