Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Enough is enough

nsogroup.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

101–110 of 135 posts

Re: Enough is enough

#101

Post by dredmorbius »

no_identd wrote: post #97
dredmorbius wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The modern commecial business corporation is ineherently a risk-externalising structure, which is specifically indicated in certain naming conventions, notably the "limited liability corporation". Legally it exists to sheild investors, as well as creditors and officers, from full personal liability. That has certain advantages, but as with all forms of impunity is subject to and the direct source of tremendous abuses…

>there's a version of Goodhart's Law [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodhart%27s_law ] buried in here somewhere and/or: * Campbell's law — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campbell%27s_law * the Lucas critique — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucas_critique * the McNamara fallacy — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McNamara_fallacy Previous discussion of Goodhart's law on Hacker News: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23…

Thanks, and also for the spell-check (corrected in original).

A good set of additions as well, McNamara Fallacy especially.

Re: Enough is enough

#102

Post by cbsmith »

gonehome wrote: post #84
cbsmith wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think they're claiming they didn't know bad things could happen. Their "Transparency and Responsibility Report" is essentially a detailed accounting of how they weighed that risk when licensing their software. I think one can certainly take issue with their approach, but they don't appear to be naive about the risks.

Their response in this post suggests they don't view this targeting as related to them or their responsibility. > "The list is not a list of targets or potential targets of Pegasus. > "The numbers in the list are not related to NSO group. > "Any claim that a name in the list is necessarily related to a Pegasus target or Pegasus potential target is erroneous and false. > "NSO is a technology company. We do not operate…

I said they don't appear to be abdicating responsibility for the risk their software could be used for bad things to happen. If you look at the report, it's all about weighing that risk against the risks of not licensing their software.

They are abdicating responsibility for the list, which doesn't seem unreasonable since the Pegasus Project has been pretty explicit that they don't know where the list came from, who put it together, or why any particular entry was put in to the list. The Pegasus Project guys have already walked back their statement that the list is phones that have been targeted by Pegasus, so...

It very much sounds like someone found some HLR logs and then failed to determine whether that list was specific to Pegasus or not. It seems very unlikely that there'd be HLR logs that would be specific to Pegasus somewhere, so I'm not sure how anyone could expect them to take responsibility for such a list.

Re: Enough is enough

#103

Post by dredmorbius »

soheil wrote: post #67
notafraudster wrote: post #22

Pretty embarrassing response, honestly. If you specifically work in an area that can be used for sensitive purposes, you have a moral responsibility as to who you choose to sell to and what you choose to enable them to do. Moreover, if you're going to engage in moral indignation -- we can't possibly be responsible for what our customers do!!! -- then you can't end with a paragraph about how you're a league of superhe…

> Kashoggi's widows Plural?

Jamal Khashoggi was married three times.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamal_Khashoggi

Re: Enough is enough

#104

Post by hellotomyrars »

celticninja wrote: post #2

Translation: we are going to get away with it whether we spend money on PR or not, so we are going to save the money. Fuck You.

Worked for Tesla.

NSO groups clients aren’t going to care. If anything they’d probably prefer them saying nothing at all.

Re: Enough is enough

#105

Post by gonehome »

cbsmith wrote: post #102
gonehome wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their response in this post suggests they don't view this targeting as related to them or their responsibility. > "The list is not a list of targets or potential targets of Pegasus. > "The numbers in the list are not related to NSO group. > "Any claim that a name in the list is necessarily related to a Pegasus target or Pegasus potential target is erroneous and false. > "NSO is a technology company. We do not operate…

I said they don't appear to be abdicating responsibility for the risk their software could be used for bad things to happen. If you look at the report, it's all about weighing that risk against the risks of not licensing their software. They are abdicating responsibility for the list, which doesn't seem unreasonable since the Pegasus Project has been pretty explicit that they don't know where the list came from, who…

Thanks for the details - given that, they could have written a real response to the allegations rather than this blog post they posted and it would have come across better.

This blog post comes across very defensive somewhat clueless, doesn't inspire confidence.

I get why they'd not want to engage with the media (media writers are often useless at best, if not actively/intentionally harmful with regard to this kind of technical nuance), but that's no excuse for the response they have here. If they were going to go direct they should have done it right.

For the curious, their report: https://www.nsogroup.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/ReportBo...

Re: Enough is enough

#106

Post by dredmorbius »

_Nat_ wrote: post #65

That's one site I'm iffy on enabling JavaScript for.. is there an alternative host for the release?

NSO Group

Enough Is Enough

In light of the recent planned and well-orchestrated media campaign lead by Forbidden Stories and pushed by special interest groups, and due to the complete disregard of the facts, NSO is announcing it will no longer be responding to media inquiries on this matter and it will not play along with the vicious and slanderous campaign.

We will state again:

The list is not a list of targets or potential targets of Pegasus.

The numbers in the list are not related to NSO group.

Any claim that a name in the list is necessarily related to a Pegasus target or Pegasus potential target is erroneous and false.

NSO is a technology company. We do not operate the system, nor do we have access to the data of our customers, yet they are obligated to provide us with such information under investigations.

NSO will thoroughly investigate any credible proof of misuse of its technologies, as we always had, and will shut down the system where necessary.

NSO will continue its mission of saving lives, helping governments around the world prevent terror attacks, break up pedophilia, sex, and drug-trafficking rings, locate missing and kidnapped children, locate survivors trapped under collapsed buildings, and protect airspace against disruptive penetration by dangerous drones.

Re: Enough is enough

#107

Post by mcguire »

intunderflow wrote: post #14

They know they're probably going to get away with it, and there's not much more that can be done to target them specifically. Their operations sound like that of a criminal group just dressed up with a nice logo and website, but as long as Israel doesn't care, it doesn't matter.

Pegasus is considered a munition; Israel has to approve its sale and export. Israel's attitude is a bit stronger than "doesn't care".

Re: Enough is enough

#108

Post by ignoramous »

ithrow wrote: post #72
soheil wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Kashoggi's widows Plural?

In some cultures muslims can have four wives.

Muslims can marry four wives, but it is generally not recommended. Most muslim-majority countries place restrictions on polygny, and at least one (Turkey) has outlawed it entirely.

Re: Enough is enough

#109

Post by mcguire »

abecedarius wrote: post #85

Is there an explanation why hacking-as-a-service is not illegal under https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_Fraud_and_Abuse_Act ? The page goes on at such length I admit I barely skimmed it, beyond checking that yes cell phones are deemed computers.

It's not in US jurisdiction?

Re: Enough is enough

#110

Post by mcguire »

zionic wrote: post #73

These people and their employees need to be on terrorist watch lists, their assets and passports frozen, domains seized etc. It is an absolute joke that the “Justice” department allows these organizations to operate freely and uncontested.

The company is not under US jurisdiction. The lawsuit against it (Facebook/WhatsApp v. NSO) is ongoing.
Post reply on HN