Twike • Hacker News Board

Re: Twike

#131

Post by everdrive » Wed, Jul 21, 2021, 1:47 PM UTC

el_nahual wrote: post #12

Another example of how, if you had to design a vehicle for passenger city/suburban use, you would never ever ever come up with an ICE sedan, or to be honest even an electrical vehicle of "normal" proportions. Pretty sure the car is the most harmful invention of the 20th century. The damage it has done to the environment, our health, and social fabric is hard to grok. A couple edits for clarification: - I'm talking ab…

I think this is a great point, and I've always been on board with the general damage done by cars. The solutions I read about are nearly always focused around the cities. Now, this makes sense, since most people live in cities, and so you can make the biggest impact there. But what about people who live in the country or rural areas? What solutions are there for those sorts of folks?

Re: Twike

#132

Post by ofrzeta » Wed, Jul 21, 2021, 1:48 PM UTC

The price of the Twikes is absolutely ridiculous. You have to be an idiot or an absolute enthusiast to buy one because with every other vehicle you get a lot more for the money.

I wonder how they got to that price. Obviously no economy of scale here but still, I can't create a business on the grounds that I will only sell like two vehicles per year, so I need to make them ridiculously expensive to make my company sustain.

Even if I totally manufacture that machine it will never be so costly.

Re: Twike

#133

Post by 1123581321 » Wed, Jul 21, 2021, 1:48 PM UTC

hengheng wrote: post #124

brudgers wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We could build THREE transcontinental high-speed rail lines every year with the money we spend on personal automobiles Once you get to the western mountains, there are only four rail grades that are suitable for freight. The old Northern through Montana near Glacier National Park; the original Union/Central Pacific route along the Platte and over the Sierras around Donner Pass; the ATSF route across the Colorado Plat…

How's the geology compared to regions of the world that have a dense rail network? I've always found it strange that the stereotype for great rail infrastructure was Switzerland, which would be last on my list of countries to equip. French TGV climbs 3.5%, German ICE climbs 4%. That simplifies a lot of the route planning. Rail bridges are surprisingly simple and cheap (open area, known loads, no salt) and tunnels are…

Switzerland’s unusual geography, population distribution, and history have given them an unusual set of skills. :)

I’d venture that American rail could have looked similar if the North American continent was made up of dozens of countries instead of just one, forcing at least one of those countries to use the Rockies more comprehensively.

Re: Twike

#134

Post by Xylakant » Wed, Jul 21, 2021, 1:53 PM UTC

refurb wrote: post #121

el_nahual wrote: post #12

Another example of how, if you had to design a vehicle for passenger city/suburban use, you would never ever ever come up with an ICE sedan, or to be honest even an electrical vehicle of "normal" proportions. Pretty sure the car is the most harmful invention of the 20th century. The damage it has done to the environment, our health, and social fabric is hard to grok. A couple edits for clarification: - I'm talking ab…

This is a funny take as I live in a developing country and owning a car is seen as the mark of a successful person. No more waiting for public transport. No more getting soaked walking or riding a bike in the rain. Convenience, comfort, time efficient. To say a sedan would be designed today is a ridiculous take. Nobody forced cars on people, they wanted them.

In germany, policies in the 60ies and 70ies were designed to increase car ownership. People didn’t want cars. They wanted transportation from A to B and public policies made cars the most attractive option.

Re: Twike

#135

Post by yohannparis » Wed, Jul 21, 2021, 2:01 PM UTC

ofrzeta wrote: post #132

The price of the Twikes is absolutely ridiculous. You have to be an idiot or an absolute enthusiast to buy one because with every other vehicle you get a lot more for the money. I wonder how they got to that price. Obviously no economy of scale here but still, I can't create a business on the grounds that I will only sell like two vehicles per year, so I need to make them ridiculously expensive to make my company sus…

Mostly because it's made in an highly develop country with strong labour law and high quality of life. Sure, you could built it in Turkey or U.S.A. and lower significantly the cost, but not as much as you think.

Re: Twike

#136

Post by gumby » Wed, Jul 21, 2021, 2:02 PM UTC

everdrive wrote: post #126

gumby wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Pretty sure the car is the most harmful invention of the 20th century. A bit of perspective: the automobile cleaned up cities, which used to have a huge infrastructure to manage animal waste. The automobile enabled freedoms: not just freedom to travel, which the manufacturers emphasize, but freedom of association, unlocked a wider freedom to work, in particular for women, and in general, ironically, enabled the gro…

Are you two equivocating between different kinds of "clean?" Animal waste vs. exhaust, metal, and brake and tire particles?

Assuming that “equivocating” was a typo:

I’m not defending the automobile as some paragon. I’m pointing out the lack of historical perspective, without which it’s hard to evaluate both the impact/value of the automobile and the impact/value of alternatives. A post hoc ergo propter hoc argument rarely leads to insight, much less useful decision.

The animal waste was a huge public health and economic issue, one almost inconceivable today. The automobile unlocked huge human rights and economic values. So you can’t shift modes of transport (people have tried!) without addressing those as well.

And I recognize this even though I prefer a non-automobile lifestyle and have lived in cities with functioning public transport (Melbourne, Paris, Berlin, Tokyo, NYC).

Re: Twike

#137

Post by ofrzeta » Wed, Jul 21, 2021, 2:08 PM UTC

yohannparis wrote: post #135

ofrzeta wrote: post #132

The price of the Twikes is absolutely ridiculous. You have to be an idiot or an absolute enthusiast to buy one because with every other vehicle you get a lot more for the money. I wonder how they got to that price. Obviously no economy of scale here but still, I can't create a business on the grounds that I will only sell like two vehicles per year, so I need to make them ridiculously expensive to make my company sus…

Mostly because it's made in an highly develop country with strong labour law and high quality of life. Sure, you could built it in Turkey or U.S.A. and lower significantly the cost, but not as much as you think.

For comparison, the Renault Twizy starts at 7k Euro. Ok, that doesn't include the battery, and maybe it's assembled in Romania but still a much more reasonable price for a comparable product.

Re: Twike

#138

Post by Xylakant » Wed, Jul 21, 2021, 2:09 PM UTC

usrusr wrote: post #77

faeyanpiraat wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's fine, the main problem is that 90% (imaginary data) of the cars in cities are not used. If all "normal" people used car sharing services or taxis, then a lot of roads could have 1 more lane (where parking normally occurs), which would increase the throughput of the streets. All the peak hour traffic circling around their destination struggling to find a parking spot would also disappear. This would reduce the ov…

One problem is that there's a long tail of car use cases that are served terribly by things like car-sharing. For example if you rent a car for a few hours of driving, two weeks of parking at some trailhead or remote resort and then driving back it's inevitably priced for the wear and tear that would happen if you spent the entire two weeks doing nothing but sleeping and driving. Rentals that aren't dead-set on the p…

I think people underestimate the price of owning a car vs. renting one. I can rent a VW Golf in Berlin for 500 EUR per month. (assuming you buy it new, own it for 5 years and drive 15000km/year) https://www.adac.de/_mmm/pdf/autokostenuebersicht_47085.pdf

That means I can rent that car for ~5 month and still come out ahead.

Re: Twike

#139

Post by everdrive » Wed, Jul 21, 2021, 2:10 PM UTC

gumby wrote: post #136

everdrive wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you two equivocating between different kinds of "clean?" Animal waste vs. exhaust, metal, and brake and tire particles?

Assuming that “equivocating” was a typo: I’m not defending the automobile as some paragon. I’m pointing out the lack of historical perspective, without which it’s hard to evaluate both the impact/value of the automobile and the impact/value of alternatives. A post hoc ergo propter hoc argument rarely leads to insight, much less useful decision. The animal waste was a huge public health and economic issue, one almost…

Definitely not a typo -- I understood "equivocating" to mean "switching between two meanings of a word." Do I have that wrong? Either way, I hear you on the historical argumentation here: a lot of the complaints people have today may have some validity, but are often wholly ahistorical: they are blind to just how much progress we have made in many areas, and how hard fought that progress is.

Re: Twike

#140

Post by tpm » Wed, Jul 21, 2021, 2:11 PM UTC

brudgers wrote: post #130

hengheng wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How's the geology compared to regions of the world that have a dense rail network? I've always found it strange that the stereotype for great rail infrastructure was Switzerland, which would be last on my list of countries to equip. French TGV climbs 3.5%, German ICE climbs 4%. That simplifies a lot of the route planning. Rail bridges are surprisingly simple and cheap (open area, known loads, no salt) and tunnels are…

Compared to the geography of Switzerland, it makes sense to talk of a trans-continental railroad in the US and is absurd in relation to Switzerland. You can put three Switzerland's (or one Portugal) in the Mojave desert. To put it another way, Europeans haven't built high speed rail from London to Baku for similar reasons. The tree lined cloisters where political theory makes all nation states equal is not a good mod…

Europeans haven't built high speed rail from London to Baku mostly because they (we) can't agree that's in their best interest and then invest accordingly.

The Swiss did vote for and consequently built things like the Gotthard Base Tunnel.

The Chinese are also building a lot of rail infrastructure and are of a similar size to the US. But then they have higher population density. But it's probably more a question of political priorities than physical realities.