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EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable

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Re: EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable

#251

Post by cromka »

max_ wrote: post #228
d--b wrote: post #141

I’m amazed by how short sighted most of the comments here are. When it comes to large financial operations, society has clearly chosen transparency over privacy. Cause guess what, tax evasion, money laundering, political fixing, terrorism financing are things that exist and really are hurtful to our economies. Stop fantasizing that the government cares about the shit you buy. This is not about you. And Bitcoin’s anon…

Bitcoin's goal was to help people "get out" of the traditional financial system "not inside it". Everyone knows where the real money laundering and terrorist financing happens. It is done by the likes of HSBC, Standard Chartered and other big banks. This is public knowledge, as we have seen with the Panama papers and most recently the FinCen files. Our financial institutions are too rotten for you to even assume that…

> Everyone knows where the real money laundering and terrorist financing happens.

> It is done by the likes of HSBC, Standard Chartered and other big banks.

> This is public knowledge, as we have seen with the Panama papers and most recently the FinCen files.

No. This is an observational bias. All we know is that they do that. But the fact that they do that, too, does not logically imply that resorting to them is the only way of money laundering and that BTC is not used for that a) at all b) at a much larger scale.

Re: EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable

#252

Post by tinco »

garmaine wrote: post #179
elmo2you wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe that the moment you hold valuable assets (i.e. any value of crypto currency) in any wallet, then you should report that (even now). I have no idea how these new rules will play out, but I can image how exchanges might be forced allow only transactions with "sanctioned" wallets (i.e. traceable to person), and international exchanges not playing complying being blocked from to the EU market.

In parts of the EU, maybe. That's definitely not the case in the US. Do you generally have to report accounts for which there have been no taxable events?

You don't have capital tax? Here in The Netherlands we pay a tax over assets exceeding some value. If you have a million, whether it's sitting a bank, or it's stuffed in your mattress, you have to report it and pay (a small amount of) tax on it.

Afaik we also don't have taxable events, we just have income tax.

Re: EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable

#254

Post by wcoenen »

qwertox wrote: post #226
Trias11 wrote: post #18

>> The new rules would also prohibit providing anonymous crypto-asset wallets. Where should I send my Ledger to so i can be a good, obedient citizen and be compliant with this law?

You could be asked to sign a message provided to you by the government. That would be enough. It's interesting, because normally a bank/exchange would do that for you, but in this case, it's up to you to report which assets you own. The fact that it is possible is the interesting thing here.

> You could be asked to sign a message provided to you by the government. That would be enough.

That would only link you to one particular address.

Modern wallets are typically "hierarchical deterministic" as described in BIP32[1]. They generate new keys/addresses from a seed value as needed. To properly register such a wallet, you would have to provide the root public key from which all addresses can be derived (but not private keys).

[1] https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_0032

Re: EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable

#255

Post by forty »

novok wrote: post #220
forty wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not really sure your comment was criticizing anything though, just stating fact. Whether this is good or bad is a matter of opinion. Personally I'm more than happy to see cash disappear since I think it's mostly useful for laundering money and tax avoidance.

This kind of attitude usually comes from people who have not been prosecuted by their government or have not had a family history of it happening to their parents or grandparents. They probably trust their governments to an implicit degree. If you are escaping a 3rd world or 1st world shit hole and you are a target of an authoritarian, murderous regime, cash might be your only life line to get smuggled out of a count…

Absolutely, state trust is obviously a cultural thing and probably depends a lot on your current and past relationships with the state. And yes I trust state were I live. When I compare to the US, one explanation is that in my country, the state pays for security, health and education for example, so it's a win-win relationship (I pay quite a lot of taxes now, but given my family history, I would probably be hard working in the fields for a very low income hadn't the state paid for my education, so I'm happy to pay). In this context it's easier to befriend the state, than when it would happily let you die if you cannot afford a hospital.

As I said in another comment, I think cash is also controlled by the state, so a totalitarian regime which would have issues with it could probably make it worthless anyway, don't you think? (You could smuggle cash from other countries, but cash from your own country wouldn't help too much). Also I'm pretty sure totalitarian dictators are some of the main benefictors (is that a word?) from the lack of traceability of cash.

Re: EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable

#257

Post by betwixthewires »

chrisco255 wrote: post #146
dogma1138 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As others have mentioned the EU is mulling an EU wide “ban” of transactions above €10,000. However most member states already have that in place including far lower limits. In Greece all cash transactions above €500 have to go through an AML due diligence process which includes a full KYC for both the buyer, seller and any beneficiaries of the transaction. Basically it’s too much of a hassle to do so businesses simpl…

As an American, that's insane sounding to me. Without financial sovereignty the American revolution would have never happened. And we'd still be ruled by monarchs.

It is insane to me to be in discussions like this and see Europeans trust their government more than they trust their mothers. Literally every time in history they've gotten complacent with their governments their governments tried to kill them all, and still they never learn.

Re: EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable

#258

Post by nenadg »

rad_gruchalski wrote: post #240
max_ wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bitcoin's goal was to help people "get out" of the traditional financial system "not inside it". Everyone knows where the real money laundering and terrorist financing happens. It is done by the likes of HSBC, Standard Chartered and other big banks. This is public knowledge, as we have seen with the Panama papers and most recently the FinCen files. Our financial institutions are too rotten for you to even assume that…

> It is done by the likes of HSBC, Standard Chartered and other big banks. And, as it happens, because of the records, it has been discovered and everyone involved is traceable. The system works.

>and everyone involved is traceable. The system works.

The system does not work.

Everyone involved have been discovered by `rouges` like Assange that system holds in jail for either made-up or largely irrelevant accusations, out of the scope of their opus, full soviet style.

Everyone knows the king is naked and just comedians and activists at large (or in jail) has courage to say something about it, which is pretty medieval position for all of us to start with.

Re: EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable

#259

Post by workallday21 »

tobltobs wrote: post #235
ur-whale wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Large levels of public spending are a choice that we have made as a society It most certainly isn't a choice we've made democratically. Rather, it's a case of boiling the frog: a thousand tiny cuts inflicted by elected politicians over the very long term which has slowly led to the monster size leech our government has become.

No, most people are just stupid enough to elect the one promising the most.

You could also say a true alternative will never be allowed to get big enough to have votes. Systemic something something.

Re: EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable

#260

Post by alkonaut »

OtomotO wrote: post #192
bryanrasmussen wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

well, we had to make the superior system of cash inferior - as just described.

We didnt have to, some chose to. I never voted for any of those clowns in power

There is currently no political (and therefore I assume public) will to go for privacy over transparency for large money transfers.

You can vote for someone who wants to reverse this, and it might change. Since this is pretty much an international system though (banks offering anonymous accounts will have difficulty interoperating with other actors), it’s likely not enough with political/public opinion in just one country.

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