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EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable

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141–150 of 402 posts

Re: EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable

#141
I’m amazed by how short sighted most of the comments here are.

When it comes to large financial operations, society has clearly chosen transparency over privacy. Cause guess what, tax evasion, money laundering, political fixing, terrorism financing are things that exist and really are hurtful to our economies.

Stop fantasizing that the government cares about the shit you buy. This is not about you.

And Bitcoin’s anonymity is not a feature of blockchain and never has been. There is the wallet, but who holds the wallet is not part of the protocol.

You can’t show up in a bank with a bucket load of $100 bills and open an anonymous bank account. Well you shouldn’t be able to with bitcoins either.

Re: EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable

#142
post #127
post #4

Cryptocurrency financial crimes are often masked as a technical issue inherent to decentralized, trustless networks rather than the truth; they are issues inherent to centralized, trustful systems.[a] Transfers within the blockchain are already perfectly traceable. Perfect traceability is the reason for the blockchains being. It is the interface between the blockchains and traditional finance where this problem lies.…

>The history of finance is the history of financial crime. Jews starting banks because of Christian usury laws, the Medici sidestepping the monetary power of the church and kingdoms, etc. Most societal advancements are crimes in the beginning as those in power disagree with the new ideas of the subjects. Civil rights, religious freedom, even literacy itself was deemed to be dangerous and unacceptable in their times.…

Human trafficking, illegal arms sales, ransomware attacks every day, one of the world's richest men pumping and dumping a meme coin... no big deal?

It might be that 'most societal advancements are crimes in the beginning' but it doesn't follow that most new kinds of crime are societal advancements.

Re: EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable

#143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're worried about that then Bitcoin isn't for you. It's not just Governments, anyone can see _every_ transaction as it's in the public ledger.

I'm aware that full ledger visibility is a fundamental part of Bitcoin. I'm actually more concerned that the governments and central banks of the world will push for near total traceability with their own currencies. Whether that comes in the form of "GovCoins" or reporting requirements, I do not know. But I think it is practically inevitable.

Why does everyone talk about regulators as if they rule over us rather than answer to us?

Re: EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable

#144
post #10

That's why the move to decentralized everything. This total control nonsense will eventually end and these dinosaur idiots will stuck with their own destructive ideas

> This total control nonsense will eventually end and these dinosaur idiots will stuck with their own destructive ideas

I agree with most of crypto’s philosophy. But this obnoxious naivety makes me root for and materially support the other side.

Is there a word for this?

Re: EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable

#145
post #10

That's why the move to decentralized everything. This total control nonsense will eventually end and these dinosaur idiots will stuck with their own destructive ideas

I really, really want to believe this but I don't think I can. Over the past several years there has been an unquantifiable but subjectively enormous shift in the atmosphere of the cryptocurrency world. At one point it shifted from being about paranoid hackers and techies trying to create a way of doing transactions that was free from trusted third parties to being essentially a space for grifters to shill shitcoins and idiots to buy them. Bitcoin went from being a thing with a radical, revolutionary purpose in the world to being "look, price graph goes up," and this fills me with a deep sense of foreboding.

It increasingly feels like we are in a time when anything with any potential to harm the Regime (such as web, bitcoin, etc) just gets defanged and absorbed into the system. In a few years, your web browser will probably transmit the details of your mandatory TPM chip to facebook, netflix, etc so they can uniquely identify all devices with complete precision and deny access to unapproved (user-controlled) computers. Microsoft already only allows users to install other OSes/bootloaders on new computers by their good grace. The keys are theirs, not yours.

With bitcoin we already have KYC/AML ruthlessly enforced at every onramp/offramp. It is already very hard to transact between fiat and crypto without presenting some form of government-issued identification, and it will only get harder as time goes on, I don't see how you could reverse this process. And that culture shift is important because the people whose voices are most dominant within the "crypto sphere" today don't seem to give a shit, really. The crypto people we have now seem to lack the deep, fundamental commitment to human freedom, privacy, and security that was the animating force behind the creation of bitcoin. I desperately want to believe that it still survives and I'm just not seeing it somehow. But I simply can't.

Re: EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable

#146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Source of such bold claim? You can absolutely pay cash for (almost) anything. Even if you're buying a house, you can pay cash if both sides agree to it, and the solicitors check everything is legit and you can prove where you got the money from - but there is completely nothing in law that would prohibit such transaction from happening.

As others have mentioned the EU is mulling an EU wide “ban” of transactions above €10,000. However most member states already have that in place including far lower limits. In Greece all cash transactions above €500 have to go through an AML due diligence process which includes a full KYC for both the buyer, seller and any beneficiaries of the transaction. Basically it’s too much of a hassle to do so businesses simpl…

As an American, that's insane sounding to me. Without financial sovereignty the American revolution would have never happened. And we'd still be ruled by monarchs.

Re: EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable

#147
post #141

I’m amazed by how short sighted most of the comments here are. When it comes to large financial operations, society has clearly chosen transparency over privacy. Cause guess what, tax evasion, money laundering, political fixing, terrorism financing are things that exist and really are hurtful to our economies. Stop fantasizing that the government cares about the shit you buy. This is not about you. And Bitcoin’s anon…

> You can’t show up in a bank with a bucket load of $100 bills and open an anonymous bank account. Well you shouldn’t be able to with bitcoins either.

So we have to make a superior system inferior?

Re: EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable

#148
post #81
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any comment that criticises the EU gets downvoted immediately here. Link to a news piece commenting the new Spanish law: https://www.rtve.es/noticias/20210630/congrso-aprueba-ley-pr...

I'm not really sure your comment was criticizing anything though, just stating fact. Whether this is good or bad is a matter of opinion. Personally I'm more than happy to see cash disappear since I think it's mostly useful for laundering money and tax avoidance.

It's useful for privacy, which is a basic human right.

It's useful if electronic systems go down. It's useful in an emergency situation. It's useful for donations. It's useful for instant settlement.

You're more than happy to give away your financial sovereignty and to take away your optionality because you think they'll collect more taxes from it?

Re: EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable

#149
post #141

I’m amazed by how short sighted most of the comments here are. When it comes to large financial operations, society has clearly chosen transparency over privacy. Cause guess what, tax evasion, money laundering, political fixing, terrorism financing are things that exist and really are hurtful to our economies. Stop fantasizing that the government cares about the shit you buy. This is not about you. And Bitcoin’s anon…

I would argue with "society has clearly chosen" statement. The governments are putting more and more strict regulations in place for last decades and they often don't care what the society thinks about those. There used to be a time not long ago when one could show up in bank with a bunch of cash and it would be of no issue. I don't think that terrorism was less important back then.

Re: EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable

#150
post #141

I’m amazed by how short sighted most of the comments here are. When it comes to large financial operations, society has clearly chosen transparency over privacy. Cause guess what, tax evasion, money laundering, political fixing, terrorism financing are things that exist and really are hurtful to our economies. Stop fantasizing that the government cares about the shit you buy. This is not about you. And Bitcoin’s anon…

Isn't transparency in trade and commerce a relatively new practice? Like maybe in the last 100-150 years. Mostly so as a means to collect taxes based on treaties? And there is still very little transparency.
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