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EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable

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Re: EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable

#101

Post by elmo2you »

stavros wrote: post #73
elmo2you wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How private are those then? Isn't it true that at least everything is visible to at least all participants? EDIT: in other words, my question is actually whether your claim has relevance, considering how most crypto currencies aim to be public (or that's at least my impression).

No, you can't see anything, basically. You can only see your own wallet and transactions, and (AFAIK) you can't even see who sent you funds.

So, then how does that technically work? How will integrity be verified/guaranteed?

If it's just an application level shielding, as in a separation between user software that can't access the information but a layer/cluster of infrastructure software that can, then I'm not so sure if its nothing more than rather meaningless cosmetics.

Do you by any change have some references as to how this would work? because I sincerely believe that this statement of "decentralization means access to all" actually fundamentally holds.

EDIT: I'm also doubting the classification of decentralized, if a piece of the user software relies on something else that has more capabilities (essentially a typical trait of centralization).

Re: EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable

#102

Post by stavros »

elmo2you wrote: post #101
stavros wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, you can't see anything, basically. You can only see your own wallet and transactions, and (AFAIK) you can't even see who sent you funds.

So, then how does that technically work? How will integrity be verified/guaranteed? If it's just an application level shielding, as in a separation between user software that can't access the information but a layer/cluster of infrastructure software that can, then I'm not so sure if its nothing more than rather meaningless cosmetics. Do you by any change have some references as to how this would work? because I sinc…

Sure, there are a ton of resources here: https://www.monero.how/how-does-monero-privacy-work

Re: EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable

#103

Post by ushakov »

nly wrote: post #97
ushakov wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's hosted on IPFS and the source code is on GitHub https://github.com/Uniswap

My understanding was the licensing on the web interface was not liberal

sure, but the smart contract (backend) is deployed on public ethereum blockchain, nothings can stop you from building your own client

Re: EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable

#104

Post by dalmo3 »

cecilpl2 wrote: post #58
yellow_lead wrote: post #47

> The new rules would also prohibit providing anonymous crypto-asset wallets. When you drill this down, it seems they are really outlawing certain math.

When you drill down, laws against murder are really just outlawing moving various atoms around in specific ways.

There you go.

People have been successfully brainwashed into believing that money transfer is equivalent to murder.

Re: EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable

#105

Post by ushakov »

Barrin92 wrote: post #100
ushakov wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

would you also support banning words? it's apparent, that money launderers, drug buyers, criminals communicate using words

What kind of strawman is that? I didn't say I want to get rid of all forms of digital payments, I'm perfectly fine with any form of digital payment system if it is able to comply with basic due diligence required by the law. Anonymous payments stand out in that their only distinguishing advantage is that they make that impossible. I don't want to ban words and I don't want to ban money. But society very well can dema…

society and the EU are welcome to demand whatever they want! :)

the ugly truth is that they have no power over the bitcoin network and their ideas will not reach consensus from miners

that's why they're to attacking the middlemen instead

Re: EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable

#106

Post by tablespoon »

gruez wrote: post #6

>The new rules would also prohibit providing anonymous crypto-asset wallets. As a business/service, or in general? If the latter, then it's literally a ban on cryptography.

>> The new rules would also prohibit providing anonymous crypto-asset wallets.

> As a business/service, or in general? If the latter, then it's literally a ban on cryptography.

There are more applications of cryptography than cryptocurrency, which is why the term "crypto" for cryptocurrency was so unfortunate. It pretty much erased the prior established usages, leading to lots of confusing situations.

This could ban cryptocurrency (the tells are focusing on terms like "assets", "wallets", and using Bitcoin as an example), but it doesn't sound like it bans cryptography (if it did, tells would be "keys", "messages", etc.).

Re: EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable

#107

Post by beiller »

Barrin92 wrote: post #100
ushakov wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

would you also support banning words? it's apparent, that money launderers, drug buyers, criminals communicate using words

What kind of strawman is that? I didn't say I want to get rid of all forms of digital payments, I'm perfectly fine with any form of digital payment system if it is able to comply with basic due diligence required by the law. Anonymous payments stand out in that their only distinguishing advantage is that they make that impossible. I don't want to ban words and I don't want to ban money. But society very well can dema…

I'm not understanding your argument. You are against anonymous money? You realize what the alternative is? Credit cards. Ie you can only transact with visas permission, also they skim some cents off each transaction inflating all prices for all consumers. Have you heard about interest rates before? Because credit cards have the worst interest rate of any financial product. This is what centralized money gets us. The same problems exist in debit cards and fed digital coins as well fyi. Also skimming off the top and controlling how much your savings are worth via monetary policy. But at least little Billy cantbbuy drugs right? Also he has no spare change for the homeless either.

Re: EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable

#108

Post by nybble41 »

Barrin92 wrote: post #59
ushakov wrote: post #52

> a company transferring crypto-assets for a customer would be obliged to include their name, address, date of birth and account number, and the name of the recipient guess what, Mr. Commissionaire? Bitcoin isn't a company and you don't need to ask companies to transfer crypto assets edit: this just shows how little power they have over the network, so they will tyrannise the middlemen instead

nope but if you want to actually convert your crypto into any good or service or currency that doesn't happen to be crypto, you're going to be rendered legible. And that alone is going to make tax evasion or laundering a lot harder, and probably makes it a way less attractive asset for criminals.

On the contrary, nothing has really changed here. If you're moving your crypto to an exchange in order to sell it and withdraw euros or dollars or whatever, guess what—you're already in the system. These rules already applied due to the interaction with the traditional financial system when you withdraw your balance. Now the exchange will be required to do the same reporting on the crypto side, but they already had that data. The same goes for moving traditional currency into an exchange to buy crypto. The only areas really affected by the new rules would be exchanges which only involve crypto (e.g. BTC for ETH), direct transfers between customers on an exchange or between exchanges—which aren't actually crypto transactions to begin with even if they are denominated in crypto units—and withdrawals to addresses controlled by parties other than the account holder, which many exchanges didn't permit anyway. (Withdraw to your own unhosted wallet first.)

It's still a huge invasion of privacy etc., completely unjustified and unethical etc., but let's not get too worked up over what seems to me like a fairly predictable shift in which businesses are subjected to KYC/AML regulations. The more reputable exchanges have basically been assuming that these rules applied to them all along. Unhosted wallets and direct transfers between them are unaffected since they don't involve a Crypto-Asset Service Provider. Centralized exchanges were always an awkward stop-gap measure in any case, not a fundamental part of the crypto ecosystem. If this encourages people to trade directly through the decentralized network and avoid CASPs wherever possible, so much the better.

Re: EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable

#109

Post by mdoms »

ushakov wrote: post #31

i'm shocked how ignorant these lawmakers are, trying to gain control over a decentralised structure nobody asked them for this and even if this change ends up in bitcoin's core, it will ultimately fail to reach consensus our wallets are none of your business, EU, get out!

> nobody asked them for this

I'm in favour of regulating and tracing cryptocurrency. I don't think people should be able to sell kiddie porn, bribe officials, scam innocent people or launder money with impunity. I think lots of people would agree with me.

Re: EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable

#110

Post by boredwithlife »

mdoms wrote: post #109
ushakov wrote: post #31

i'm shocked how ignorant these lawmakers are, trying to gain control over a decentralised structure nobody asked them for this and even if this change ends up in bitcoin's core, it will ultimately fail to reach consensus our wallets are none of your business, EU, get out!

> nobody asked them for this I'm in favour of regulating and tracing cryptocurrency. I don't think people should be able to sell kiddie porn, bribe officials, scam innocent people or launder money with impunity. I think lots of people would agree with me.

People should be able to transact business among themselves without the government knowing. The ugly comes with the good. It's part of life, personal responsibility.
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