Clojure builds as an amalgamation of orthogonal parts
1–10 of 99 posts
Re: Clojure builds as an amalgamation of orthogonal parts
#2Note to non-Clojurians:
Most people just use Leiningen and don't mess with this stuff.
This post does not paint a good picture of Clojure development tools, but don't get turned off by it.
99% of Clojure projects I've worked on just have a declarative project.clj file and building it is as simple as:
$ lein uberjar
Re: Clojure builds as an amalgamation of orthogonal parts
#3Note to non-Clojurians: Most people just use Leiningen and don't mess with this stuff. This post does not paint a good picture of Clojure development tools, but don't get turned off by it. 99% of Clojure projects I've worked on just have a declarative project.clj file and building it is as simple as: $ lein uberjar I will never understand the core team's acute NIH Syndrome and tendency to fragment the community, but…
I've tried deps several times, but I keep coming back to leiningen. Can anyone explain the advantage of using deps to me?
What I want from a build tool is: manage dependencies, starting a repl, running tests, and building a jar. Leiningen provides me this: lein repl, lein test, lein uberjar. Simple and exactly what I need, and importantly: i can expect that all leiningen projects use the same commands.
Deps can be made to do all these things, and more, but you need to configure it. Which test runner should I use for tests? Which library should I use to build an uberjar? Since it's all configurable, I risk that every deps project gets it's own special snowflake build setup, and I need to spend time avoiding this.
Until deps gets a standard way for building and testing, i'm sticking to leiningen.
Re: Clojure builds as an amalgamation of orthogonal parts
#4Note to non-Clojurians: Most people just use Leiningen and don't mess with this stuff. This post does not paint a good picture of Clojure development tools, but don't get turned off by it. 99% of Clojure projects I've worked on just have a declarative project.clj file and building it is as simple as: $ lein uberjar I will never understand the core team's acute NIH Syndrome and tendency to fragment the community, but…
Hard agree here. As a full time Clojure dev, my experience is that lein "just works". I've also used the Clojure Tools professionally, and have seen the dev team lose countless days of what would be otherwise productive time putzing with it, building infrastructure that lein has had out-of-the-box for years, and trying to make sense out of its inscrutable docs.
Want a project with both Clojure and Java? Want tests that magically integrate with CIDER's test functions? Complex build profiles for different target environments? Lein makes this stuff as painless as possible, whereas these things are possible with Clojure Tools, but have fun wasting time messing with it and doing awkward stuff like inlining strings of eval-ed clojure code in your build file. With Leiningen these are solved problems.
I also find the core team's behavior perplexing. I'd argue the messy tooling they've been producing has probably been net negative value add to their community. Working downstream from this stuff has degraded the dev experience. Thankfully, it can be safely ignored.
Re: Clojure builds as an amalgamation of orthogonal parts
#5Note to non-Clojurians: Most people just use Leiningen and don't mess with this stuff. This post does not paint a good picture of Clojure development tools, but don't get turned off by it. 99% of Clojure projects I've worked on just have a declarative project.clj file and building it is as simple as: $ lein uberjar I will never understand the core team's acute NIH Syndrome and tendency to fragment the community, but…
Leiningen is over 10 years old and has tons of pain points. For example, I bet you're not using ClojureScript, which is a mess of plugin debugging in leiningen. The goal of tools.build is to let you code your builds as simple functions that run at the REPL, which is awesome. No more finding misplaced keys in soup like https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/sample.... . If leiningen works for you, great, keep using it!
Re: Clojure builds as an amalgamation of orthogonal parts
#6Note to non-Clojurians: Most people just use Leiningen and don't mess with this stuff. This post does not paint a good picture of Clojure development tools, but don't get turned off by it. 99% of Clojure projects I've worked on just have a declarative project.clj file and building it is as simple as: $ lein uberjar I will never understand the core team's acute NIH Syndrome and tendency to fragment the community, but…
Ya, this accords with my thoughts when I first saw this bubble up, I don't understand the benefit over just using lein, which is very easy and straightforward (for my use case). I thought maybe this new approach is needed by people with complicated builds? My own builds have been quite simple so far, but I'm new to Clojure.
Re: Clojure builds as an amalgamation of orthogonal parts
#7Note to non-Clojurians: Most people just use Leiningen and don't mess with this stuff. This post does not paint a good picture of Clojure development tools, but don't get turned off by it. 99% of Clojure projects I've worked on just have a declarative project.clj file and building it is as simple as: $ lein uberjar I will never understand the core team's acute NIH Syndrome and tendency to fragment the community, but…
Ya, this accords with my thoughts when I first saw this bubble up, I don't understand the benefit over just using lein, which is very easy and straightforward (for my use case). I thought maybe this new approach is needed by people with complicated builds? My own builds have been quite simple so far, but I'm new to Clojure.
I have worked on pretty large Clojure projects, and found Leiningen to be perfectly adequate.
Re: Clojure builds as an amalgamation of orthogonal parts
#8Note to non-Clojurians: Most people just use Leiningen and don't mess with this stuff. This post does not paint a good picture of Clojure development tools, but don't get turned off by it. 99% of Clojure projects I've worked on just have a declarative project.clj file and building it is as simple as: $ lein uberjar I will never understand the core team's acute NIH Syndrome and tendency to fragment the community, but…
Leiningen is over 10 years old and has tons of pain points. For example, I bet you're not using ClojureScript, which is a mess of plugin debugging in leiningen. The goal of tools.build is to let you code your builds as simple functions that run at the REPL, which is awesome . No more finding misplaced keys in soup like https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/sample.... . If leiningen works for you, great…
What pain points are those? Last I checked, doing cljs on Clojure Tools wasn't even possible. If that's still the case, then that's not a valid comparison (complex vs impossible).
Also, that's the master version of project.clj, which is a superset of all possible features lein supports. Nobody's project.clj file looks like that, though I suspect you know this. Should we compare that complexity to a monster build.clj and this master deps.edn:
https://github.com/seancorfield/dot-clojure/blob/master/deps...
Lein is also a singular tool vs. a murky interaction between a suite of tools (tools.deps with deps.edn, Clojure CLI, and tools.build).
Re: Clojure builds as an amalgamation of orthogonal parts
#9Note to non-Clojurians: Most people just use Leiningen and don't mess with this stuff. This post does not paint a good picture of Clojure development tools, but don't get turned off by it. 99% of Clojure projects I've worked on just have a declarative project.clj file and building it is as simple as: $ lein uberjar I will never understand the core team's acute NIH Syndrome and tendency to fragment the community, but…
I've tried deps several times, but I keep coming back to leiningen. Can anyone explain the advantage of using deps to me? What I want from a build tool is: manage dependencies, starting a repl, running tests, and building a jar. Leiningen provides me this: lein repl, lein test, lein uberjar. Simple and exactly what I need, and importantly: i can expect that all leiningen projects use the same commands. Deps can be ma…
deps is extremely simple, which means very little time spent debugging, and it never breaks
Re: Clojure builds as an amalgamation of orthogonal parts
#10Note to non-Clojurians: Most people just use Leiningen and don't mess with this stuff. This post does not paint a good picture of Clojure development tools, but don't get turned off by it. 99% of Clojure projects I've worked on just have a declarative project.clj file and building it is as simple as: $ lein uberjar I will never understand the core team's acute NIH Syndrome and tendency to fragment the community, but…
I've tried deps several times, but I keep coming back to leiningen. Can anyone explain the advantage of using deps to me? What I want from a build tool is: manage dependencies, starting a repl, running tests, and building a jar. Leiningen provides me this: lein repl, lein test, lein uberjar. Simple and exactly what I need, and importantly: i can expect that all leiningen projects use the same commands. Deps can be ma…
Same. I don't want to spend time learning build tools and configuring builds - I want to Get Shit Done.
Lieningen gets out of my way and lets me do the things that really matter, and I'm not switching till I see some clear advantages of the new tooling.