Restaurant workers quit at record rate • Hacker News Board

Re: Restaurant workers quit at record rate

#391

Post by tshaddox » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 9:08 PM UTC

throwawayboise wrote: post #253

lashloch wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's something amusing to me about the idea of an industry that "used to be" sustainable. Guess it wasn't sustainable after all.

McDonald's and similar jobs used to be an entry level job for teens and college students. When I was 16 I was happy to work there for minimum wage ($3.35/hr at the time). Nobody other than the mangers did it to support a family. It was never understood to be that kind of job. I don't know how we got to the point where a no-skills-required job that anyone with a pulse can learn to do in a few hours suddenly became req…

> I don't know how we got to the point where a no-skills-required job that anyone with a pulse can learn to do in a few hours suddenly became required to support a family of four.

That's an odd way of looking at it. Surely what happened first isn't that the expectations of fast food jobs changed out of the blue. Could it instead be that other jobs which adults worked to support their families went away?

Re: Restaurant workers quit at record rate

#392

Post by ruined » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 9:08 PM UTC

darkwizard42 wrote: post #211

ruined wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you do not get unemployment if you quit your job voluntarily. when managers say employees leave in order to collect unemployment, it's a lie.

It is more that when the pandemic hit, most restaurants let go of their working staff, given they couldn't furlough or keep them on payroll when the restaurants were closed. Since they were fired, they got unemployment. Now, restaurants are open again, but folks don't want to go back for the meager pay (and likely the extra freedom in their time is welcome as well).

that's not the situation of "employees quit to collect unemployment", which is commonly claimed and is what i was calling a lie. the article at the root of this discussion documents that employees are indeed actually quitting, which disqualifies unemployment.

but anyway, for those who do collect unemployment, job search requirements are in effect now. unemployment offices are requiring workers to apply to jobs and document their search. they cross-reference with employers and will actually revoke unemployment if job offers are declined. if restaurants still can't hire staff under these forced conditions, it's because they are simply worse than other jobs available, and perhaps even worse than no income.

Re: Restaurant workers quit at record rate

#393

Post by pixl97 » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 9:08 PM UTC

tshaddox wrote: post #385

mdavis6890 wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What we are observing is the Demand Curve shifting left (people less interested in eating out) and the Supply Curve shifting down (the people willing to work in restaurants for any given wage is going down). Remember that supply and demand curves cover all wages/prices and quantities, they are not specific to a certain price/wage or quantity. This is observed as a shortage - more customers willing to buy a restaurant…

Is it really a shortage? If the preferences of potential restaurant customers simply changes such that they're no longer willing to pay enough for a restaurant meal for the restaurant to stay financially solvent, that's not a shortage. It's only a shortage if something is preventing the market price from changing (in this case, the price of a restaurant meal increasing) or preventing restaurants and customers who are…

does it matter if it's a technical shortage or just and observed one?

The only thing preventing restaurants from changing their prices is the 'penguin on an iceberg' issue. You may be correct in raising your prices, but if other restaurants are willing to lose money longer before they raise their prices your business may suffer/fail because of it before the rest of the market changes their prices/wages.

Re: Restaurant workers quit at record rate

#394

Post by FredPret » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 9:09 PM UTC

cmckn wrote: post #266

daenz wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I knew someone who was mad at their partner because their partner was a software engineer and "didn't work as hard as they do" at a lower skill job, and yet made a lot more money. I'm not sure where this idea comes from that hard work is as valuable/more valuable than skilled work. But it seems to be a pervasive idea.

I don't think "hard work" and "skilled work" are useful buckets, there's a lot of overlap. It really boils down to how much money a business can make from your outputs. A line cook makes the business less money than someone building an AWS service. This is not a law of nature, just the status quo.

I think the difference in leverage between a software eng and a line cook does have a law-of-nature quality to it. Line cook serves dozens a day, software serves minimum 0 and maximum the whole planet a day, and that service could stick around for years without degradation

Re: Restaurant workers quit at record rate

#395

Post by WalterBright » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 9:09 PM UTC

chickenpotpie wrote: post #254

WalterBright wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Customer entitlement is out of control It's not just customer entitlement. It's been a steadily rising thing throughout society for my whole life. People are less and less willing to accept responsibility for their choices, and more and more it's always someone else's fault. For example, a person who chose to go $300,000 into debt to go to Columbia film school, where the starting salary upon graduating is $30,000,…

I agree customer entitlement is growing but I disagree with your example. We created a society where we tell people they should chase their dreams and anything is possible in America. Then, when they chase their dreams and fail we tell them how stupid they are that they did that and they should have done something more practical. I don’t think teenagers should be blamed for doing exactly what they were told to do and…

Not checking starting salaries for one's major is stupid. I'm being blunt, but there's no other word for it.

> teenagers

Masters degree students are not teenagers.

Re: Restaurant workers quit at record rate

#396

Post by pessimizer » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 9:09 PM UTC

daenz wrote: post #92

colinmhayes wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Restaurant work sucks, it's not tipping's fault. I don't work nearly as hard as a software developer compared to when I was a waiter or cook. Software development is lower stress most of the time too.

I knew someone who was mad at their partner because their partner was a software engineer and "didn't work as hard as they do" at a lower skill job, and yet made a lot more money. I'm not sure where this idea comes from that hard work is as valuable/more valuable than skilled work. But it seems to be a pervasive idea.

> I'm not sure where this idea comes from that hard work is as valuable/more valuable than skilled work. But it seems to be a pervasive idea.

It comes from well-paid workers also liking to pretend that they are hard workers. It's required for the moral superiority.

Re: Restaurant workers quit at record rate

#397

Post by smachiz » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 9:09 PM UTC

mariodiana wrote: post #383

jandrewrogers wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has been tried many times, you are ignoring the reasons it did not work. The employees hate it because they make less money, forcing the restaurant to go back to tipping. It was effectively a pay cut for employees. It is not wage/revenue neutral because it changes customer behavior. Generally speaking, Americans are more generous when the money goes to directly to a service person than to a faceless business tha…

I can't articulate the details, down to the last detail, but the worst thing to happen to tipping is the change the IRS made, some years back. If I understand correctly, the IRS always used to estimate tip for a server based on a table's bill. (The custom is 15-20 percent, and I think the IRS used to average lower than that.) But the IRS always used to collect its cut on tips from the server. The change is that the I…

This isn't an IRS change. It was a public behavior change.

The owners always had to withhold taxes from their wait staff, just as your taxes are withheld by your employer.

The difference is that since almost all tips are now on credit cards, the business owner doesn't need to assume the % sales to withhold, and withholds based on virtually all of their employees tips.

The end result is that the wait staff can't commit tax fraud by not reporting tips. The business owner didn't have to report cash tips, only withhold based on a % of sales. They still withhold on % of sales if actual tips are less than the % of sales.

Re: Restaurant workers quit at record rate

#398

Post by imtringued » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 9:09 PM UTC

throwawayboise wrote: post #261

dragonwriter wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Which raises the question of why anyone would work, if doing whatever you want and still living a comfortable life was an option. People with literally billions of dollars of wealth still devote time and energy to earning more. I don't think its a stretch to think that people who merely have enough for tolerable food, clothing, shelter will continue to do so.

But there are very few people with that kind of wealth, because very few people have the innate drive to do what it takes to attain it. Most people don't have that drive. Most people just want a paycheck and a low-risk life.

Use free market logic instead of making things up. If a billionaire has enough money to do nothing then why would he do something? It's because the tradeoff is worth it. Business owners have a large stake in their business. They can get billions out of a company.

For a minimum wage worker it is absolutely trivial to see that the tradeoff isn't worth it and subsequently they behave predictably like a lazy person. People acting according to free market logic deserve the stick. Do you see the problem?

Re: Restaurant workers quit at record rate

#399

Post by Kluny » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 9:10 PM UTC

ericbarrett wrote: post #73

Wages/insurance/tips are an ongoing concern of food service work, but I want to set that aside and talk about the other half of the article. Customer entitlement is out of control and anybody who works with the general public will tell you it’s gotten even worse since the pandemic—and it wasn’t trending in the right direction before. Flight attendants, park rangers, government clerks, the anecdotes are everywhere, in…

I find it very strange too, but I find it even stranger that management mostly continues to tolerate it. A business has the right to refuse service. If someone is abusing your staff, why not kick them out and ban them immediately? Public shame is the best cure for bad behavior, and staff will be loyal a manager who has their back. Instead of that, assholes mostly seem to be allowed to keep on being assholes until they get to the point of physical violence.

Re: Restaurant workers quit at record rate

#400

Post by oramit » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 9:10 PM UTC

oliv__ wrote: post #340

oramit wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there has been a general rise in selfish behavior now that pandemic restrictions are being lifted. You have people who never took the pandemic seriously and now that things are back open, but are not the same, they are lashing out. That's one part of this. I also think you have another camp, which I'll admit to being a member of. I did everything I was supposed to do. I stayed at home, used masks everywhere,…

As I write that I know intellectually how self-centered, selfish, and delusion it is but I feel it intensely. Almost as if there was some kind of flaw in the initial premise...

Care to share the flaw instead of being vague?