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My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

danlawton.substack.com

381–390 of 600 posts

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#381
In the midst of all of the "You're just doing Buddhism wrong!" comments, I would like to point out the PLOS One paper mentioned in the article, "The varieties of contemplative experience: A mixed-methods study of meditation-related challenges in Western Buddhists" (https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal...).

"In one of the only prospective studies to use qualitative methods to deliberately ask about adverse effects, Shapiro (1992) [67] found that 63% of meditators on an intensive Vipassana retreat reported at least one adverse effect, with 7.4% reporting effects negative enough to stop meditating, and one individual hospitalized for psychosis."

It appears that mindfulness-based meditation is being prescribed or promoted with no regard to the side-effects.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#382

Kundalini syndrome. Not great. Widely written about but you need to know where to look. Gopi Krishna is probably the most widely known case, but you only have to peruse Reddit's Kundalini subs for more. That's my issue with all this mindfulness stuff. A load of Westerners ripped the guts out of practices to shed the "dogma". But that "religion" they chucked out was the result of generations of people interpreting the…

Whenever I read about a novice practitioner having a Kundalini experience, I wonder how experienced the retreat host(s) are. Or if the person had a mentor with sufficient experience. While there are many spiritual interpretations, there is also practical advice online for recovering. Walking outside (experiencing nature) is commonly suggested. Accidentally stumbling into this disorienting experience could be (and in…

Kundalini goes up. Apparently to integrate the experience you need to bring it back down. This is the Descent of the Dove I think in Christianity (or the decent of grace). Whereas the kundalini is supposed to be hot sometimes described as liquid fire ("baptism of fire" - see where that comes from?), the descending current is meant to be cooling.

The Taoists are most vocal about the decent, incorporating it into the Microcosmic Orbit practice. Some yogis do also mention it but for them it's related to a return to the heart rather than the lower dan tien.

Anyway this is mostly theory for me at this point. I've seen enough to convince myself it's a real phenomenon but didn't see it through. I think I might not be too far off now though, but we'll see...

As to your point about novices I have read that different people react in different ways. Some just seem primed for rapid progress while some have to work for decades.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Abidharma is the closest thing in Buddhism to psychology; it presents a detailed, practical (for meditators) way of thinking about the mind and how it works. It doesn't resemble Western psychology at all. By the way, why does is not? What do you mean under Western psychology at all? Freud and Jung? If so, is it a mere incoincidence the models of the mind they invented are different from that of Abidharma or did…

Well, Western psychology purports to be "science". That means that results have to be replicable, testable, and observable. The Abhidharma was created by meditators, for meditators. Those people were not constrained by scientific method. Some of the stuff in the Abhidharma reflects teachings of the Buddha; but most of it was constructed by monks, after the Buddha's death. I don't know of anyother models of mind, othe…

"Western psychology purports to be "science". That means that results have to be replicable, testable, and observable."

Not to go off on too much of a tangent, but the testability criterion was seen as inadequate and was replaced a while back with falsifiability[1], but even that has its own problems.

String theory's claims are supposedly untestable. Is it not a science?

I'm not a physicist, but I've heard there are cloud chamber experiments for which the only observer is the physicist performing the experiment, and are not reproduceable and yet are published in physics journals all the time.

That's not to mention that while many experiments are in principle reproduceable, in practice they usually don't get reproduced, and even if they were reproduced at one point they're not going to be continuously reproduced over and over again by each researcher (who has not the time, education, budget, or interest to reproduce every experiment they've ever read and not yet read but that is still an accepted part of the overall body of scientific knowledge).

Science, just like pretty much every other human cooperative endeavor, largely runs on trust... trust that what one reads and learns is mostly accurate. As skeptical as they make themselves out to be most scientists just don't run out and try to replicate every experiment under the sun or every a large fraction of them. They just trust the results they read are more or less accurate, or expect someone else to catch them.

Back to Western psychology. Some branches of it (like the Cognitive/Behaviorist branches) do purport to be more "scientific", but others like Freudian, Jungian, Humanistic, and Existential and Transpersonal psychology (not to mention art therapy, dance therapy, drama therapy, somatic therapy, life regression therapy, etc) aren't so big on the "science" bit, and aren't so interested in experiments or the scientific method at all.

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsifiability

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#384
post #340

I'll acknowledge some bias on my part as someone who has experienced more disassociative episodes (unrelated to meditation) than I care to have had but I think some of the replies here are very callous given how scarring I've found those experiences to be. My first contact with mindfulness-based meditation was cognitive behavioural therapy through mental health professionals and haven't received any warnings to heed.…

If anything some of the comments here prove his point that those invested in the practise have an interest to protect it and therefore say the author was meditating the wrong way.

It's honestly so weird reading comments like those on HN of all places.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>irresponsible meditation practices I can't imagine what an irresponsible meditation practice would look like. Any pointers?

It's worth ruminating on the fact that all medicines are also poisons. This is why homeopathy is so safe.

Ah, this needs explaining - any tool which can cure can also cause injury. Too much of a medicine will kill.

Homeopathy is useless, which is why you can't harm anyone with it.

Meditation does work, which is why it can also be dangerous.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#386
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't (esp dissociative experiences) what is called "dark nights" in the Buddhist traditions?

The "Dark Night" is typically attributed to St. John of the Cross, although I'd be willing to believe that the term has been used in other traditions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Night_of_the_Soul Ah, note the last paragraph in this article: 'In modern mindfulness practice, many authors have named a similar phenomenon in meditation as the dark night of the soul after the poem. It is often described as a length…

I would be very careful in comparing what St. John means and what is meant in the Buddhist sense. See [0] for those interested in a brief comparison.

Selected quotes:

"The ultimate end of man for Christians is union with God, while for Buddhists it is Nirvana (complete detachment, or a state of nothingness)."

"For Buddhists, salvation is a privation of individual consciousness; for Catholics salvation is an eternally fulfilling relationship with a loving Creator."

"For both Buddhists and Catholics “detachment” is important, but for Catholics detachment is not an end in itself. St. Francis de Sales preached that man must desire to “possess his soul” rather than allow it to be possessed by worldly things. Catholics pursue this for the purpose of elevating their soul by offering it back to Christ. So detachment is a means to a rich and meaningful “higher awareness” (if you will) that reaches its culmination in seeing God face to face."

So this (temporary) dark night of the soul ultimately leads to a deeper, perhaps more mystical relationship with God.

[0] https://www.catholicculture.org/commentary/catholicism-and-b...

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#387
This thread is blowing my mind, although not for the obvious reason.

I’m just astounded by all the anecdotes people are mentioning here that suggest meditation, mindfulness, etc. actually work, even the secularized, distorted, popularized versions we get here in the West.

Previously I just assumed this was all a bunch of wackadoo woo-woo bullshit designed to separate dissatisfied California yuppies from their money.

The fact that it could be dangerous and mentally destabilizing, and lead to such dramatic changes in personality and outlook as described in the linked articles and reinforced by replies here, is obviously reason for caution - but it also signifies strong evidence that this a very powerful and effective practice. I’m much more interested in learning about meditation than before reading the article.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#388
post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? Now I'm here and enjoy the moment. Now I'm not and the body just lives on its own doing it's job like a robot could when I could be dead and not mindful of anything. A minute is gone. To me this seems rather simple. Perhaps my verbal abilities are not enough to explain. Once, as a schoolboy, I've heard about Buddhists who train to always stay consciousness while living, talking and whatever, I considered this am…

I don't think that's sufficient. Being mindful and doing nothing is still doing nothing. You should be doing measurable work, otherwise your minute is gone, and it's just as gone whether you're mindful during that time or not. You still changed nothing, and you can't backtrack to tell if you were doing nothing or being mindful while doing nothing.

This is a matter of philosophy, your "world view". AFAIK Buddhists don't believe you have to change anything or even pursue a happy state. As for me at this phase of my development being mindfully happy (and not hypnotized happy like under narcotics or in a pleasant dream) makes the most sense (and happiness often comes when you do anything mindfully - AFAIK this is called "sukha"). And in fact this is not useless even from a practical (economical) point of view - this is genuine recreation letting you take the most out of your resting (and even doing chores) which makes you more stable and efficient after that.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#389
post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One take I heard about yoga that kinda applies here is "if yoga is injuring you, your understanding of it is wrong" I think the underlying issue with all these asian-spiritualism-turned-western-nouveau-health is that western people sometimes come in wanting things to be intense, clinical and goal-oriented. But that's literally the opposite of what most of what these disciplines are all about. Asian health upkeep prac…

if yoga is injuring you, your understanding of it is wrong That feels a lot like either victim blaming, or being fed a No True Scotsman truism and accepting it. One could say the same thing about staying within their skill level for any high-risk adventure sport. "If that advanced ski course is injuring you ...."

It's interesting that you brought up high risk sports. The context of that quote was related to people injuring themselves by being too aggressive on stuff they should know better (one example was a relatively advanced practitioner pulling a calf muscle on a downward dog of all things). That's an example of a type of injury where the person sets goals (e.g. stretching to some specific previously achieved limit) without paying attention to the current state of the body (e.g. it's a fairly well known phenomenon that muscles are tighter in the morning than early evening, especially before warm ups).

Yoga isn't about quantified stretch goals, it's a daily fitness regime. So if you pull a leg muscle by going on a super deep downward dog first thing in the morning without warming up because you're aspiring to reach some guru-like level quickly, instead of seeing yoga as a fitness program to carry your body to old age, then yes, your understanding of the practice is wrong.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#390
post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it can be summarized as "recklessness" (i.e. jumping the gun without proper understanding of/regard to foundational concepts)

> I think it can be summarized as "recklessness" (i.e. jumping the gun without proper understanding of/regard to foundational concepts) Well… I tried to approach it properly. You google or look up in wikipedia a bunch of info on Buddhism, then you find most popular authors writing on the topic. You end up with “Zen mind, beginner’s mind” and a few others. None of them tell you it may hurt you, none of them mention do…

In general, one key tenet you will find even in those books is a focus on 'being' and 'experiencing' reality over taking as truth an abstract knowledge of how something 'should be'.

An approach that might work better could be a gradual and expanding exposure, talking physically in person to others, and exposing oneself physically to the practices and reality of a number of different sects and groups over time - while evolving your own understanding with book reading. It is very unlikely that meditating, or following basic practices, is going to cause anyone harm - but definitely not impossible based on their state of mind or circumstances. Given a large enough group trying something, it is inevitable someone will have a terrible outcome. It doesn't mean others won't have amazing outcomes, however.

It is our own individual responsibility to take ownership for making the decisions we make, taking the path we take, and owning the results, or we lose all handle on the little we can actually control and become even more lost.

Going to a meditation retreat (12+ hrs) without a solid grounding and understanding of the context would be a bit like hopping on a race motorcycle on a track day right after getting a learners permit - ill advised, and unlikely to result in anything healthy. Not impossible it wouldn't go well however, and not something likely to need screening for from the retreat (or track) side. Usually most people would realize pretty quickly even if they were dumb enough to get started and quit before anything really terrible happened.

If someone doesn't know or recognize that, they are unlikely to find the right ways to get in trouble - usually.

Book knowledge can help expand or refine knowledge, but should always be validated and integrated with personal experience. There are too many conflicting ways to take a specific passage, too many personal traumas or gotchas, too many environmental variables for anything else frankly.

It should not be your only or especially your only foundational knowledge about something so fundamental as how to understand or approach reality and yourself.

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