My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown • Hacker News Board

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#281

Post by cyberpunk » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 5:29 PM UTC

wnkrshm wrote: post #211

cyberpunk wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, keep in mind this is a practice that as far as we know people have been practicing for at least 2600 years, I think doing things like a 5-10 day Vipassana retreat is not a risk free thing, but you really shouldn’t be doing those unless you are ready. I follow the Soto school of Zen Buddhism, my teacher would not allow me to go to Sessin (which is a multi day meditation retreat) until I had been practicing for l…

Interesting. I had never even imagined that meditation could be so distressing. I don't know anything about Zen really, do you feel the article gives a good impression of being in a disturbed state from meditation or would you say it's likely inaccurate in general?

All zazen enables you to do is observe yourself and your reality very closely; this includes the good and the bad. Seeing under the veil of the stories we spin for ourselves to function can be extremely freeing but at the same time also very difficult to cope with.

I can’t make a call either way in the authors mental state, but clearly there was stuff going on unrelated to meditation which he clearly needs some help dealing with.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#282

Post by lhorie » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 5:32 PM UTC

sjayasinghe wrote: post #262

wizzwizz4 wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> as this contradicts the purely empiricist approach of mechanically practicing mindfulness with the expectation that this leads to enlightenment. This isn't really an empiricist approach. Empiricists look at what works, and (from what you're saying) this doesn't . I'm not sure what to call it, but that's the wrong word.

I'm using the word here to mean a philosophical position which only accepts knowledge that can be gained via direct meditative experience and rejects everything else. I'm open to suggestions for a better word to describe this position.

I think it can be summarized as "recklessness" (i.e. jumping the gun without proper understanding of/regard to foundational concepts)

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#283

Post by 8note » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 5:33 PM UTC

qwerty456127 wrote: post #147

Nursie wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You only live and actually own/use your time when mindful. When you are not it just disappears. This sounds both judgemental and obsessive, just so you know.

Why? Now I'm here and enjoy the moment. Now I'm not and the body just lives on its own doing it's job like a robot could when I could be dead and not mindful of anything. A minute is gone. To me this seems rather simple. Perhaps my verbal abilities are not enough to explain. Once, as a schoolboy, I've heard about Buddhists who train to always stay consciousness while living, talking and whatever, I considered this am…

I don't think that's sufficient.

Being mindful and doing nothing is still doing nothing.

You should be doing measurable work, otherwise your minute is gone, and it's just as gone whether you're mindful during that time or not. You still changed nothing, and you can't backtrack to tell if you were doing nothing or being mindful while doing nothing.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#284

Post by andrewzah » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 5:34 PM UTC

Nursie wrote: post #253

andrewzah wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

10 years doesn't really mean much by itself. If I incorrectly practice guitar for 10 years, I'll have experience of practicing the guitar incorrectly, and maybe RSI/health issues from not learning correct posture, etc. There is no rule that I'll actually get "good" at guitar by practicing that way. "that 's being taught and lauded so much as a panacea" Lauded by whom? And exactly? Buddhism? Meditation? Those are very…

> If I incorrectly practice guitar for 10 years, I'll have experience of practicing the guitar incorrectly, and maybe RSI/health issues Whether the person in the article practised incorrectly or not is not really the issue. The narrative on and praise for mindfulness in recent years has not included any warnings that there may be dangers. Quite the opposite, it is usually posited as an unambiguous positive. Your idea…

> Your idea that this person was 'doing it wrong' is quite a hand-wavy posture to start with, especially as the author finds that such problems have been described by experienced practitioners.

How they handled it and went about it was wrong. Actual experienced practicioners may face those problems (see dukkha nanas / the dark night of the soul), but with proper instructors there are well-known ways of dealing with it.

> The article mentions whom ... the great and the good that attend and throw conferences, those that throw workshops and run retreats

What I was getting at is that is ambiguous. "Mindfulness" is anywhere from jhana, "intensive meditation", etc, to more elements of stoicism. Practicing stoicism has just about nothing that can actively harm anyone or is dangerous. As pointed out in this article's discussion, the author has been conflating terminology which demonstrates a lack of understanding.

> Do you have evidence that the author was not learning from experienced practitioners?

Firstly, problems like the ones described in the article are well-known. Knowledgeable instructors are upfront about them and provide frameworks and guidance for dealing with them, instead of, as per the article, just "suggesting various ways that I might alter my meditation practice to alleviate my symptoms".

This looks to me like a case of the blind leading the blind in a consumerized and repackaged version of meditation that advertises "mindfulness/meditation" as a cure-all for one's problems. There is a reason that Transmission [0] is a thing. Just like even if I practice guitar for 10 years, that doesn't mean I'm actually qualified to teach it or provide useful guidance.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharma_transmission

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#285

Post by imwillofficial » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 5:36 PM UTC

EdwardDiego wrote: post #127

cyberpunk wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He was an instructor in "Mindfulness-Based Stress Reduction" -- sorry, this is not a real thing. He's been teaching things he clearly does not understand, and his mind was blown by this. When I say "a teacher would tell you to come back to the moment" it's not quite as simple as I make it sound, the key thing is who the advice is coming from (read: an actual zen teacher who has received transmission, not a charlatan…

> an actual zen teacher who has received transmission, not a charlatan I'm really hoping you were going for darkly ironic humour, if not, please reread your sentence I quoted and, I don't know, contemplate on it. Received transmission? From the Trisolarians perhaps?

Transmission refers to receiving chi, or a spark of energy from an advanced teacher. Perhaps less snark, and more curiosity would serve you on topics like this.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#286

Post by acuozzo » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 5:36 PM UTC

DantesKite wrote: post #265

"I was a guitar string being tuned beyond its highest range. The string popped. A spike of fear slashed through my guts. And that’s when I split apart." I read on Twitter about this one guy who gave himself brain damage by constantly working for months on end while programming. It's interesting that a few others described a similar sensation. Their brain feeling like a guitar string. There's a moment where they can d…

> I read on Twitter about this one guy who gave himself brain damage by constantly working for months on end while programming.

Link? I'm interested.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#287

Post by SyzygistSix » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 5:37 PM UTC

disgruntledphd2 wrote: post #239

SyzygistSix wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People like Aleister Crowley, Austin Spare, and modern psychonauts interested in chaos magic have worked/played in these spaces outside of established traditions and communities. And there have always been people like this. But they also fully expect some weirdness to occur. Meditation within a community and tradition is certainly a safer, and often more fruitful way to go about it, just like traveling anywhere with…

> Aleister Crowley I'm kinda with his student, Israel Regardie on this stuff though, which was that if you want to engage in spiritual practices, you should get therapy. Essentially the notion is that in order to deal with the divine/universe/whatever, you need to have dealt with the mundane. I think that this is really accurate, and would support this. Unfortunately, the "mindfulness" movement didn't really keep any…

Agreed. I think therapy and counseling is under-rated and under-utilized. There are many situations in life where a counselor's help can be beneficial. It's not just for the weak, ill, or for people who have failed. And even the strongest among us have been all three at times.

And New Age-type movements are not a good replacement.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#288

Post by arvinsim » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 5:38 PM UTC

scotty79 wrote: post #229

theqabalist wrote: post #225

Forgive me if anyone has said as much, but something that directly stands out to me about all of the comments heretofore mentioned is that they are treating a state of consciousness in a formalist way, as if the mind exists independent of the body. The brain's activities and the things the mind experiences are very much situated in the realm of bodily states. One state that is very common amongst people who follow ce…

I had pretty much the same symptoms as this guy with zero meditation, just caffeine overdose. When I stopped drinking coffee and tea all symptoms, including dread and feeling that something is very wrong, muscle twitching and other odd feelings went away. And I didn't even drink that much by coffee drinkers standards.

Switched to decaf for the same reason.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#289

Post by metabagel » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 5:41 PM UTC

m12k wrote: post #93

A lot of people come into meditation/mindfulness with this preconceived notion that you sit down, close your eyes, focus on your breathing, and find your inner bliss. In my experience, nothing could be further from the truth. You sit down, close your eyes, focus on your breathing, and come face to face with the tornado of thoughts and emotions that is raging inside you. It's like running htop on your brain to find th…

"I think actually solving some of the problems weighing on your mind should absolutely be part of your toolbox."

Yes, after meditation. I love your analogy of "garbage collection". For me, it's like flipping over playing cards, becoming interested in each card, and then remembering that I don't need to get fixated, and then discarding that card and returning to focus on my breathing, only to forget and flip over another card. Eventually, I spend less time flipping over cards and more time just sitting without judgement.

I am a lapsed meditator, and I will resolve to get back into it. Meditation helps me to remember who I am and what I really want.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#290

Post by namlem » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 5:41 PM UTC

ljm wrote: post #130

stelonix wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly what I took from it. He uses the terms "mindfulness" and "Buddhism" interchangeably, but they're not. Buddhism has ways to deal with meditations that "go bad", but mindfulness takes the Buddhism out of the practice. Mindfulness is not Buddhism.

I wouldn't conflate mindfulness (or capital M mindfulness, you could say) with meditation either. Meditation has always been a deeply spiritual practice; Mindfulness attempts to turn it into a psychological, clinical one.

Mindfulness is a category of meditation, which has been somewhat bastardized in the West. Most Buddhist practices incorporate both mindfulness and focus-oriented types of meditation.