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Time to assume that health research is fraudulent until proven otherwise?

blogs.bmj.com

421–430 of 491 posts

Re: Time to assume that health research is fraudulent until proven otherwise?

#421
The article is about intentional error; however, I have found this to be very approachable and entertaining primer on (probably) unintentional error in research:

https://www.statisticsdonewrong.com/

Research that has been further filtered onto your favorite infotainment coffee-table-science column further suffers from the 'eigonvalue' problem. I think assuming intentional fraud is excessive for a default position, but complete trust of any document formatted with Latex because "it's science" is probably worse.

Re: Time to assume that health research is fraudulent until proven otherwise?

#422
post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And pharmacists can actually give proper medical advice on the products!

they can and do give proper medical advice on the medical products they are selling but at the same time they are selling homeopathic products and other magic pills, powders and devices from the same counter. This seems conflict of interest / ethics. I am not sure why pharmacies are not regulated but that is the way it is in Austria.

Wasn’t their a serious debunk of homeopathy EU-wise? Was their stronger country-level laws that defended this scam in Austria?

Because in Hungary I no longer see them around.

Re: Time to assume that health research is fraudulent until proven otherwise?

#423
post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article is about all of medical research. Vaccine development is part of medical research and is therefore included. I did not attempt to "make it a statement about one very specific subset." I pointed out that the article is similar to the kind of article seized upon by people who have vaccine hesitancy ideations. Take your straw elsewhere.

So, on an article that you admit is about all medical research, you asked: > Is this some vaccine hesitancy in disguise from BMJ? Why, in an article that's about all of medicine, do you ask about BMJ's stance on vaccines? Why not ask about their stance on chemotherapy? Why single out vaccines? And, in the current climate, are you talking about all vaccines, or are you really talking about vaccines for one particular…

The timing and motivation of publishing something is a valid line of inquiry and not innuendo. Vaccine hesitancy is a salient topic of the day. A world leader accused a major social network of killing people by distributing misinformation [0]. Why would a publication choose this moment to editorialize about fraud in medical research? This wasn't a long running experiment from which new information was developed. Why publish now?

Maybe it has nothing to do with vaccines but rather maintaining the BMJ brand ahead of some new fraud they know will come to light, or a warning to researchers who might publish elsewhere. Why publish and why publish now?

0. https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/president-biden-facebook-soc...

Re: Time to assume that health research is fraudulent until proven otherwise?

#424
post #422

Earlier quoted context omitted.

they can and do give proper medical advice on the medical products they are selling but at the same time they are selling homeopathic products and other magic pills, powders and devices from the same counter. This seems conflict of interest / ethics. I am not sure why pharmacies are not regulated but that is the way it is in Austria.

Wasn’t their a serious debunk of homeopathy EU-wise? Was their stronger country-level laws that defended this scam in Austria? Because in Hungary I no longer see them around.

It's unfortunately surprisingly common for doctors and nurses to recommend all kinds of quack treatments in Austria. The pharmacies are not the only profiteers of these scams.

Re: Time to assume that health research is fraudulent until proven otherwise?

#425

"The case against science is straightforward: much of the scientific literature, perhaps half, may simply be untrue. Afflicted by studies with small sample sizes, tiny effects, invalid exploratory analyses, and flagrant conflicts of interest, together with an obsession for pursuing fashionable trends of dubious importance, science has taken a turn towards darkness." Richard Horton, current editor of The Lancet: https…

He talks about the case against science as well as bad studies like they are the same thing. Science is simply a method that can be done well or badly. The bad studies aren't fundamental to science itself.

It sounds like he's talking about science as a living human institution. From that perspective, he's making a strong case.

Re: Time to assume that health research is fraudulent until proven otherwise?

#426
post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Science is simply a method that can be done well or badly Science as a word doesn’t typically denote “the scientific method”. It usually means the body of knowledge and the collective of institutions that claim to practice the method. The bad studies may not be fundamental to some abstract ideal of what science could be, but they seem pretty fundamental to humans doing science in the real world.

I completely agree that the term science has many meanings which include the overall body of knowledge which includes bad studies. However I can't understand why bad studies would be fundamental to "humans doing science"? You don't need to take other research results as correct to do your own, so why does bad science need to be part of the mix? Can't we choose to ignore them or treat them with skepticism?

> You don't need to take other research results as correct to do your own

Usually you do need to rely on other people’s results.

Re: Time to assume that health research is fraudulent until proven otherwise?

#427
post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like the comment you are replying to contains an example.

Yes, I am asking for an example of when that happened.

It was very public news. Even the controversy was widely reported. I’m surprised you don’t know about it. In any case it should be easy to Google.

Re: Time to assume that health research is fraudulent until proven otherwise?

#428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What I meant by accountability is deeper: people are not accountable for the quality or utility of their work, hence the endless tidal wave of corrupt and deceptive research that pours out of government funded 'science' every day. These researchers probably filled out their expenses paperwork correctly but the final resulting paper was an exercise in circular reasoning, or the data tables were made up, or it was P-…

I haven't, but I'm unclear why it's relevant given that you don't seem to really be disagreeing! The NSF denies 80% of grant applications because there is a radical oversupply of people who want to be scientists and the NSF has a finite budget. That by itself doesn't create accountability any more than the fact that lots of people want to be movie stars creates accountability for actors. That's not how accountability…

> I haven't, but I'm unclear why it's relevant given that you don't seem to really be disagreeing!

It's relevant because you are criticizing the process but you don't seem to understand how it actually works. Your original characterization was that grant money is "this firehose of tax money being sprayed everywhere without even the slightest bit of accountability in how it's used." The reality is, when I get grant money I need to account for how every dollar is spent, and if there are ever any questions about spending, I better have the receipts to back it up. The other reality is, I only get to spend a small fraction of a grant award, as the University takes most of it off the top, and my students take almost all the rest in the form of a tuition remission and a stipend, leaving whatever is left over for equipment and conference costs. Then there are strict conflict of interest regulations which come with their own reporting requirements. I don't even get all of the money at once; I'll get some up front and then I have to show significant midterm progress in order to get more. There's accountability at multiple layers by multiple organizations.

> The NSF denies 80% of grant applications because there is a radical oversupply of people who want to be scientists and the NSF has a finite budget.

It's accountability in the form of: if you didn't do what you promised you'd do, then you don't get any more money and your career is derailed. Isn't that what you want? Anyway, do we have an oversupply of scientists relative to the amount of science that needs to be done? I don't think so. The NSF budget is finite, but it's also embarrassingly miniscule given the upside of research that has come out of NSF funded projects.

> If it existed it would look like this ... We will therefore prosecute you for research fraud and failure to meet the terms of your contract.

Fraud is one thing. I'm not going to say we shouldn't prosecute fraud. But treating a grant proposal like a contract with positive deliverables (no negative results allowed) is the exact problem. Research is not development. Research implies failure. You can't do one without the other. Failure to meet stated objectives shouldn't be met with prosecution. That just further incentivizes fraud.

If there's a replicability crises it just means we need to spend money on replication research. Researchers know no one is going to bother replicating their study because there is no grant money available for redoing someone else's research. Grant agencies don't pay for that kind of thing, and you can't make a career doing that kind of research. No one gets tenure this way. If we want studies to be replicated, we need to allocate money to replicate them, and we need to incentivize people to do so by making it a viable career for a Ph.D.

> Lots of people, non scientists included, have high expectations for results placed upon them. The right mechanisms and incentives to stop fraud are not simply having low expectations of scientists, that's absurd and wouldn't be seriously proposed as a solution in any other area of society.

I didn't say we should have low expectations, I said we should have realistic expectations, and yes, that does involve lowering expectations from where they are right now. Because the current expectation is this: you have to write a proposal that has a > Expectations on scientists are already rock bottom .. The solution to fraud is tighter contracts to ensure the rules are clear, and systematic prosecutions of people who break them.

Okay, run with this idea: exactly what rules need to be clearer and exactly how do the contracts need to be tightened? Because there are already clear rules and tight contracts, yet the problem persists. Will clearer rules and tighter contracts fix it? How?

I'll tell you what I think will happen with this system: you'll chase out all of the public scientists because the stakes are too high. Already the pay is too good on the corporate side, and now you add potential federal prosecution to the list if I don't meet positive deliverables? No thanks. I'll go work for Microsoft where my research will be privatized. You might be okay with this as you pointed out you believe a profit motive is good for research, but you know who wouldn't be good with this? Microsoft. And Google. And all the other tech companies who were (or will be) built on top of technologies that started as government funded research. All this does is make Microsoft stronger. Is that what we want? What about the next Microsoft or Google? Where will they come from?

I'll give you a concrete example of where your idea fails: the 2004 DARPA Grand Challenge. Millions were spent trying to bootstrap autonomous cars, and what was the result? They all crashed, no one completed the race. What should the response have been, to prosecute everyone involved? No, they tried again and gave everyone more money. Next time around in 2005 more succeeded (mostly because they relaxed the expectations).

Then in 2007 we saw the first real demonstration of autonomous cars in the DARPA Urban Challenge. Today, everything Tesla, Google, GM, Ford, et al. are doing with driverless cars is based on the research that happened in 2004-2007. Without government funded autonomous car research, there would be no Tesla or Waymo today. That's how research works, you try, you fail, you try again, and you have no idea how far your impact will be, and really no one does. If we try to control this process toward producing only successes with contracts and positive deliverables, like it's an engineering project (with prosecution of failure and all), it just means we're going to lose dynamics like the Grand Challenges, and the broader economy will suffer for it.

Take all that money you want to invest in prosecutors, courts, lawyers, and prisons, and invest that in a system where replication studies are well funded and a viable career path for scientists. Increase funding into the NSF and other grant funding agencies to hire more people to consider grants, and increase grant throughput. I guarantee you you'll fix a lot of the problems you're identifying.

Re: Time to assume that health research is fraudulent until proven otherwise?

#429
post #325
post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is one of the hurdles human civilisation has to iterate over en masse and long-term. Game theory is distorted by a mixture of power dynamics and the abstract nature of "society" - i.e. determining risk v reward (professional, personal, financial, etc) comes down to the individual person or organisation, whereas "society" as a concept doesn't get a say in each transaction as it occurs, so a lot of discuss…

Eh, we do have a basic "gestalt consciousness" (I prefer "hive mind") in the form of a legislature, which has the power to modify "the rules" so the market and individuals react. Recently though it's the mind of a child who often throws tantrums.

I'm not so sure that a legislature is an appropriate equivalent. There are far too few people making laws who understand the things they make laws about.

Re: Time to assume that health research is fraudulent until proven otherwise?

#430
post #22

When you want to do a proper work, your grants and papers get rejected because they are not innovatove enough or don't go far enough. So it is not a surprise that people that lied in their applications about what they can realistically do also lie when it comes to reporting results. Unfortunately there is no way out. I stopped counting how many reviewers of my grants disagreed on what was proposed, one saying that it…

The "way out" is to have severe, lasting professional repercussions for those creating these fraudulent studies. If the most egregious offenders found it hard to get any job at any institution, and those with state licensure oversight (I'm thinking primarily of physicians) lost their license to practice, you would see instances of this dry up almost overnight.

This only happens because we allow it to happen.

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