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My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

danlawton.substack.com

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Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#151

Post by CretinDesAlpes »

This is an interesting discussion as I wasn't aware that meditation could go wrong if done improperly (never really thought about it). I have only started mindfulness recently, here in the UK via an NHS approved course (though not free...) called BeMindful. I haven't finished the course but so far I like it, and I am wondering what would you suggest for the best next steps?

So far the list I have to explore is:

* Thich Nhat Hanh and https://plumvillage.org

* Joseph Goldstein

* Sharon Salzberg

* Apps (though I am a bit reluctant): Ten Percent Happier, Headspace

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#152

Post by froh »

mettamage wrote: post #27
rolleiflex wrote: post #12

Since this is a long article, here’s a summary for fellow readers — it’s mostly about the negative side effects of meditation that the author believes is under-documented or under-reported due to the ‘hype’ of meditation as the 21st century cure-all. He talks about dissociative experiences (which is well documented in medical research), it being a pseudo-religion, and lastly, his belief that the extended use of medit…

> He talks about dissociative experiences (which is well documented in medical research) Experienced this as well. > it being a pseudo-religion IMO, too simple. Many experiences feel quite pseudo-religion like. > more susceptible to breakage from smaller stresses, like one of a traffic jam Didn't experience this. In fact I believed I was more or less invincible and became pretty deluded. Thankfully a part always stay…

looking for a good level for myself, I'm curious which practice and level you find beneficial for yourself?

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#153

Post by Nursie »

qwerty456127 wrote: post #137
Nursie wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Everything is dangerous This is not what is being promoted by the mindfulness/buddhism-lite industry that the article is talking about. > you just should try your best to do it the right way under supervision of a qualified person and stop if it goes wrong. This appears to contradict "One should meditate always"

> This is not what is being promoted by the mindfulness/buddhism-lite industry Every industry is corrupt. But if you are lucky and smart enough you can actually get away with something good for you. Out of curiosity, I have even attended a course in extrasensory abilities once. Paradoxically, besides some useful self-regulation and some trance-based techniques they also taught observing your thoughts and feelings det…

> Sadly most of the industry don't care.

I think that's the point of the article, though not just about people participating who have mental conditions - most of the industry does not care about the potential negatives.

> Almost nobody can meditate intensely for long periods of time in the beginning.

I don't think this is really the issue here, the issue is that doing so seems to have the potential to cause (or at least trigger) mental health problems for some practitioners, and the advice to just "do it more and practice better" when distressed is specifically called out as harmful.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#154

Post by qwerty456127 »

denton-scratch wrote: post #143
qwerty456127 wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regarding anything as heretical is a religious view. Discard it and check yourself through experiential practice and logical exercise. There are many Buddhist/Bön teachers who will never insist on you accepting any idea/dogma nor judge you for thinking different and only guide you to how to actually see it, without harming yourself. Needless to say, as a rather-rational thinker, this is the kind of gurus I prefer. Or…

> Discard it and check yourself through experiential practice and logical exercise. Discard what? I have said elsewhere in this thread that I am a lapsed Buddhist. I hold no religious dogmas. It's not me that considers buddha-nature teachings to be heretical. And what are "experiential practice" and "logical exercise"? These sound like some kind of private jargon you are using to support your "rather-rational" approa…

I mean you don't have to agree to dogmatic and mystical parts of what a practitioner teaches to still consider and use some techniques and/or philosophical ideas you can also find in their teachings.

Experiential practice is when you do something and experience the result. Rub your hands and feel warmth appear - this is an experiential practice of experiencing warmth in your hands. Meditating a certain way you can experience a particular state of mind. This is important because some things are either impossible or useless to describe - you have to experience them and a particular practice may trigger the experience.

Logical exercise is when you exercise logic and come to conclusions.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#155

Post by pmoriarty »

Zababa wrote: post #21

This is probably a relatively naive observation, but I've found that the way some people describe meditation and how their mind change is sometimes the same as how people describe their experience under psychadelics. These bad side effects of meditation sound a bit like a bad trip, but without being able to tell yourself that it's chemically induced and thus will stop in a few hours.

"These bad side effects of meditation sound a bit like a bad trip, but without being able to tell yourself that it's chemically induced and thus will stop in a few hours."

It's not uncommon to forget one has taken psychedelics when one is having a powerful trip, and just telling yourself that it's chemically induced and will stop in a few hours doesn't necessarily help.

That's not to mention that while under the influence of psychedelics a single minute might seem like many lifetimes, or you could feel like you're in an infinite time loop and are never getting out, etc.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#156

Post by Leparamour »

bencollier49 wrote: post #30
raincom wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't (esp dissociative experiences) what is called "dark nights" in the Buddhist traditions?

The "Dark Night" is typically attributed to St. John of the Cross, although I'd be willing to believe that the term has been used in other traditions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Night_of_the_Soul Ah, note the last paragraph in this article: 'In modern mindfulness practice, many authors have named a similar phenomenon in meditation as the dark night of the soul after the poem. It is often described as a length…

>irresponsible meditation practices

I can't imagine what an irresponsible meditation practice would look like. Any pointers?

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#157

Post by SMAAART »

The journey to the center of self in anything but easy; the ones who do it seriously, will eventually face their own demons; and it's not easy to look deep into the mirror.

The mirror, just like the abyss, will start looking back at you, and it's ugly AF.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#158

Post by justsomeuser »

cyberpunk wrote: post #63
rolleiflex wrote: post #12

Since this is a long article, here’s a summary for fellow readers — it’s mostly about the negative side effects of meditation that the author believes is under-documented or under-reported due to the ‘hype’ of meditation as the 21st century cure-all. He talks about dissociative experiences (which is well documented in medical research), it being a pseudo-religion, and lastly, his belief that the extended use of medit…

These sorts of things have been dealt with for centuries by Buddhists, it’s a fairly common effect when you start with Zazen. This is why taking one part of the practice and abandoning the rest (most specifically, an experienced teacher) isn’t a great idea for everyone. Most of the time all you need to hear is “just let whatever comes up during Zazen go, and return to the moment” but alas, if you don’t things can go…

I think you are ignoring the fact that people have different brains. Sure, persist through mild discomfort.

But would you advise people who are hallucinating to do the same?

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#159

Post by mxmilkiib »

ljm wrote: post #130
stelonix wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly what I took from it. He uses the terms "mindfulness" and "Buddhism" interchangeably, but they're not. Buddhism has ways to deal with meditations that "go bad", but mindfulness takes the Buddhism out of the practice. Mindfulness is not Buddhism.

I wouldn't conflate mindfulness (or capital M mindfulness, you could say) with meditation either. Meditation has always been a deeply spiritual practice; Mindfulness attempts to turn it into a psychological, clinical one.

Here is a multi-hour playlist from a retreat by Sujato on the main mindfulness sutta that covers various points like this;

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL70fWqztn7OXdbGqWEOvhOVqf...

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#160

Post by damontal »

m12k wrote: post #93

A lot of people come into meditation/mindfulness with this preconceived notion that you sit down, close your eyes, focus on your breathing, and find your inner bliss. In my experience, nothing could be further from the truth. You sit down, close your eyes, focus on your breathing, and come face to face with the tornado of thoughts and emotions that is raging inside you. It's like running htop on your brain to find th…

What do you mean by dissociating? What is that?
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