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Edward Snowden calls for spyware trade ban amid Pegasus revelations

theguardian.com

31–40 of 85 posts

Re: Edward Snowden calls for spyware trade ban amid Pegasus revelations

#31
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sadly, most people when hearing this will prefer to argue to the death to support their "choice" of ${favorite giant corporate product} and try to tell you "you're just being paranoid". We live in a world where a great many people will accept the most outlandish conspiracy theories as undeniable fact with little to no supporting evidence, but when you try to warn them about real and verifiable concerns, it doesn't ma…

Do you have an example of someone who holds that belief? That feels like one of those stereotypes that people are sure exists but actually doesn’t.

> Do you have an example of someone who holds that belief?

Which belief? The belief that corporate spyware devices and software are infinitely superior to anything in the F/L/OSS world? I literally can't escape 'em. Especially in "gamer" circles, I get endlessly hassled by Windows users tryin'a convince me with decades old Steve Ballmer FUD that Linux is inferior junk and a cancer on the software industry, and that I should just switch to Windows.

> That feels like one of those stereotypes that people are sure exists but actually doesn’t.

Sadly, you name a stereotype, and I promise you there's people out there that'll do their best to prove that stereotype true. Cryin' shame, because they're just doin' harm to an entire group of folks who never asked for it, and harming an entire other group that believes false stereotypes are true by reinforcing their wrongness with "proof".

As to the bein' called "paranoid" from my earlier comment, it happens to me frequently when I try to talk to people about backups, network security practices, or passwords, and I'm not alone there. I've had more'n a few discussions with other IT folks who've met frequent resistance to security ideas until after there's been an issue, and then the "people in charge" still generally wanna seek the absolute minimum solution they can get that they think would cover their asses, even if it's nowhere close to enough of a solution for the problem at hand.

Re: Edward Snowden calls for spyware trade ban amid Pegasus revelations

#32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about open source spyware?

There was recently a big kerfuffle over something kinda like that. Look into recent noise about Audacity audio editor to see how that played out… ;) Edit: Curious what part of the above statement is unhelpful or inaccurate…

Since the telemetry is opt-in, some people disagree that Audacity should be called "spyware" for including it as an option. From the original pull request:

> Telemetry is strictly optional and disabled by default. No data is shared unless you choose to opt-in and enable telemetry.

https://github.com/audacity/audacity/pull/835

Ars Technica published an article describing the controversy as "massively overblown" and I agree with their analysis:

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/07/no-open-source-audac...

Re: Edward Snowden calls for spyware trade ban amid Pegasus revelations

#33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was recently a big kerfuffle over something kinda like that. Look into recent noise about Audacity audio editor to see how that played out… ;) Edit: Curious what part of the above statement is unhelpful or inaccurate…

Since the telemetry is opt-in, some people disagree that Audacity should be called "spyware" for including it as an option. From the original pull request: > Telemetry is strictly optional and disabled by default. No data is shared unless you choose to opt-in and enable telemetry. https://github.com/audacity/audacity/pull/835 Ars Technica published an article describing the controversy as "massively overblown" and I…

> Since the telemetry is opt-in, some people disagree that Audacity should be called "spyware" …

I could totally see that I guess… My point was more that the way folks reacted to that would probably be a pretty accurate indicator of how well "open source spyware" would be likely received. ;)

Re: Edward Snowden calls for spyware trade ban amid Pegasus revelations

#34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about open source spyware?

There was recently a big kerfuffle over something kinda like that. Look into recent noise about Audacity audio editor to see how that played out… ;) Edit: Curious what part of the above statement is unhelpful or inaccurate…

It resulted in a spyware/telemetry free fork. Which is how free software spyware will generally go.

>Curious what part of the above statement is unhelpful or inaccurate…

I have no idea how you think the incident played out. Your post is basically "something like that happened, there were results."

Re: Edward Snowden calls for spyware trade ban amid Pegasus revelations

#35
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sadly, most people when hearing this will prefer to argue to the death to support their "choice" of ${favorite giant corporate product} and try to tell you "you're just being paranoid". We live in a world where a great many people will accept the most outlandish conspiracy theories as undeniable fact with little to no supporting evidence, but when you try to warn them about real and verifiable concerns, it doesn't ma…

Do you have an example of someone who holds that belief? That feels like one of those stereotypes that people are sure exists but actually doesn’t.

what kinds of examples do you want? A comment that someone bookmarked?

Maybe the Baader Meinhof syndrome will kick in and you'll start noticing Proton mail/vpn users or anybody that took drank some Youtuber's VPN koolaid trying to bargain for impossibly damning evidence about their particular service instead of recognizing the flaw in the entire concept

Re: Edward Snowden calls for spyware trade ban amid Pegasus revelations

#36
post #2

I would like to point out that this kind of tech isn't only used by state sponsored operations. https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-50166147 Lone wolf creepers or quasi legal harassment companies have access to similar tools. https://www.nefariousjobsmain.com/the-works https://www.vice.com/en/article/ppmpe8/a-revenge-for-hire-bu... Although of course the state sponsored aspect of this is very real too, and the greate…

How is parler kicked off its hosting but a site plainly advertising criminal acts for hire is up and has a US domain name?

Re: Edward Snowden calls for spyware trade ban amid Pegasus revelations

#38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nations that want to do this will do it, and trade bans won't stop them. Again, that's experimentally false. Saudi and Mexico didn't develop their own home-grown spyware. They bought an Israeli product instead. This stuff is harder than you think.

this stuff is vastly easier than traditional weapons development. if you're in a precarious political position, a homegrown entity that produces these tools can quickly become a threat; the citizens you train/employ will have their own political ambitions, nationalistic tendencies, empathy for their fellow citizens, etc. there are most certainly situations where it's safer to just outsource your natsec/tradecraft to…

> this stuff is vastly easier than traditional weapons development.

Saudi and Mexico don't produce many homegrown weapons systems either. Again, non-proliferation is well-travelled territory. In fact most of these things are not something small governments will have access to if big governments don't give it to them. And treaties restricting trade in these things are known to work.

Re: Edward Snowden calls for spyware trade ban amid Pegasus revelations

#39

20 years ago I discovered antivirus software did not detect spyware by design. So never ever trust software that is not FOSS. Use Foss with reproducible builds to be a bit more safe against these by design created weaknesses.

> 20 years ago I discovered antivirus software did not detect spyware by design...

Can you provide evidence to back up this statement? I'm not disputing your claim outright, I'd just like to see your evidence.

Re: Edward Snowden calls for spyware trade ban amid Pegasus revelations

#40
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have an example of someone who holds that belief? That feels like one of those stereotypes that people are sure exists but actually doesn’t.

> Do you have an example of someone who holds that belief? Which belief? The belief that corporate spyware devices and software are infinitely superior to anything in the F/L/OSS world? I literally can't escape 'em. Especially in "gamer" circles, I get endlessly hassled by Windows users tryin'a convince me with decades old Steve Ballmer FUD that Linux is inferior junk and a cancer on the software industry, and that I…

>Sadly, you name a stereotype, and I promise you there's people out there that'll do their best to prove that stereotype true.

The point is that it takes more than just a few people to validate a stereotype; otherwise, I could make up any stereotype I want, and by your admission, it would be valid. But that isn't how sterotypes work.

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