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Edward Snowden calls for spyware trade ban amid Pegasus revelations

theguardian.com

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Re: Edward Snowden calls for spyware trade ban amid Pegasus revelations

#21

Post by ttctciyf »

It continues to strike me as a little odd that (AFAIK) there's no mention in The Guardian's reporting of this story of the parallel technology[1] sold by Gamma Group[2] and licensed for export by UK to several suspect regimes[3].

Extensive (40G) information on this was leaked via reddit in August 2014[4], and the leaker noted[5]:

> I assumed the hacking would be the hard part and once I got the data it would just kinda go viral on it's own or something. But it turn's out without any media access or idea how that shit works, getting people to notice or care is actually kind of hard.

------

1:

"FinSpy Mobile. Version 4.4, released in of Q4 2012, has the ability to collect data through Skype across iOS, Blackberry, Android, and Windows Mobile platforms . An updated Version 4.5, released in Q1 2013, included the ability to target emails, calendars and keylogging of Windows Phones, and an updated ability to collect data through the camera of a Blackberry or iOS phone."

- https://privacyinternational.org/blog/1522/six-things-we-kno... (2014)

2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamma_Group

3: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/uk-spyware-wi...

4: https://privacyinternational.org/blog/1522/six-things-we-kno...

5: https://www.reddit.com/r/Anarchism/comments/2cjlop/gamma_int...

Re: Edward Snowden calls for spyware trade ban amid Pegasus revelations

#22

Post by xbar »

Classifying such technology as military weapons would begin to address a number of international and national concerns with for-sale-malware (aka spyware).

The use of such military weapons by civilians (or civilian police) against civilians become more obviously ban-able.

Re: Edward Snowden calls for spyware trade ban amid Pegasus revelations

#23

Post by revscat »

blooalien wrote: post #6
runningmike wrote: post #4

20 years ago I discovered antivirus software did not detect spyware by design. So never ever trust software that is not FOSS. Use Foss with reproducible builds to be a bit more safe against these by design created weaknesses.

Sadly, most people when hearing this will prefer to argue to the death to support their "choice" of ${favorite giant corporate product} and try to tell you "you're just being paranoid". We live in a world where a great many people will accept the most outlandish conspiracy theories as undeniable fact with little to no supporting evidence, but when you try to warn them about real and verifiable concerns, it doesn't ma…

Do you have an example of someone who holds that belief? That feels like one of those stereotypes that people are sure exists but actually doesn’t.

Re: Edward Snowden calls for spyware trade ban amid Pegasus revelations

#25

Post by throwaway33432 »

newacct583 wrote: post #20
anothernewdude wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nations that want to do this will do it, and trade bans won't stop them. Or even discourage them. It's like banning arms sales to countries like Saudi Arabia. All it does is push them towards China or Russia. Banning this stuff just leads to consolidated power blocs of nasty regimes.

> Nations that want to do this will do it, and trade bans won't stop them. Again, that's experimentally false. Saudi and Mexico didn't develop their own home-grown spyware. They bought an Israeli product instead. This stuff is harder than you think.

this stuff is vastly easier than traditional weapons development.

if you're in a precarious political position, a homegrown entity that produces these tools can quickly become a threat; the citizens you train/employ will have their own political ambitions, nationalistic tendencies, empathy for their fellow citizens, etc.

there are most certainly situations where it's safer to just outsource your natsec/tradecraft to an entity that only cares about their bottom line.

Re: Edward Snowden calls for spyware trade ban amid Pegasus revelations

#26

Post by ozymandias12 »

ttctciyf wrote: post #21

It continues to strike me as a little odd that (AFAIK) there's no mention in The Guardian's reporting of this story of the parallel technology[1] sold by Gamma Group[2] and licensed for export by UK to several suspect regimes[3]. Extensive (40G) information on this was leaked via reddit in August 2014[4], and the leaker noted[5]: > I assumed the hacking would be the hard part and once I got the data it would just kin…

NSO gets the mic because its the biggest commercial name, there are several other companies that fly under the radar with similar technologies.

I like what some other user proposed here: military grade classification. Tada. Now sanctions apply to both sellers and users of this crap.

Re: Edward Snowden calls for spyware trade ban amid Pegasus revelations

#27

Post by Goety »

xbar wrote: post #22

Classifying such technology as military weapons would begin to address a number of international and national concerns with for-sale-malware (aka spyware). The use of such military weapons by civilians (or civilian police) against civilians become more obviously ban-able.

Enforcement here would probably be centered on adding additional sentencing time or punishment for misuse.

That said we have near zero ability to enforce this at the moment.

Re: Edward Snowden calls for spyware trade ban amid Pegasus revelations

#28

Post by ttctciyf »

ozymandias12 wrote: post #26
ttctciyf wrote: post #21

It continues to strike me as a little odd that (AFAIK) there's no mention in The Guardian's reporting of this story of the parallel technology[1] sold by Gamma Group[2] and licensed for export by UK to several suspect regimes[3]. Extensive (40G) information on this was leaked via reddit in August 2014[4], and the leaker noted[5]: > I assumed the hacking would be the hard part and once I got the data it would just kin…

NSO gets the mic because its the biggest commercial name, there are several other companies that fly under the radar with similar technologies. I like what some other user proposed here: military grade classification. Tada. Now sanctions apply to both sellers and users of this crap.

I think there is a licensing procedure in the UK and Germany (Gamma Group) and Israel (NSO), and lip-service to the idea that it's forbidden to sell to repressive regimes, already.

The big deal with the NSO story is the 50K target names, I think, and it is a big deal, but you'd expect in a supposedly oppositional paper like the Grauniad, that there'd be some mention of the current UK government's spotty record in this very department, and a sense of the history of the abuse of this technology. I'd have a hard time believing that any of this is news to the journalists reporting the story.

Re: Edward Snowden calls for spyware trade ban amid Pegasus revelations

#29

Post by milderworkacc »

xbar wrote: post #22

Classifying such technology as military weapons would begin to address a number of international and national concerns with for-sale-malware (aka spyware). The use of such military weapons by civilians (or civilian police) against civilians become more obviously ban-able.

While I agree that the trade in these tools is reprehensible, I worry about creating a new class of software that is prohibited to possess or trade in. It wasn't so long ago that strong encryption was labelled a 'dual use technology', and moving it across national borders was non-trivial.

How long will it take for pentesting tools and end-to-end encryption to be labelled 'military weapons' under such a scheme?

Re: Edward Snowden calls for spyware trade ban amid Pegasus revelations

#30

Post by squarefoot »

skarz wrote: post #2

I would like to point out that this kind of tech isn't only used by state sponsored operations. https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-50166147 Lone wolf creepers or quasi legal harassment companies have access to similar tools. https://www.nefariousjobsmain.com/the-works https://www.vice.com/en/article/ppmpe8/a-revenge-for-hire-bu... Although of course the state sponsored aspect of this is very real too, and the greate…

> Lone wolf creepers or quasi legal harassment companies have access to similar tools.

I would take that for granted, as I do with any government, including mine. But thinking that you're more likely to be kept under surveillance by the same government -no matter the color- you fund with your taxes, than some private or foreign entity, makes this even more revolting. Makes one think if nationalism was invented as a tool to throw smoke in the eyes and minds of people so that they can't see their rulers for what they really are.

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