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Time to assume that health research is fraudulent until proven otherwise?

blogs.bmj.com

201–210 of 491 posts

Re: Time to assume that health research is fraudulent until proven otherwise?

#201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly I was surprised not to see any mention of IVM in the original post. Many of the points in the original article apply to what's going on with systemic reviews of IVM - see for example allegations of misconduct/fraud by theguardian to Elgazzar's big IVM study https://www.theguardian.com/science/2021/jul/16/huge-study-s... It does also bring into question the validity of Tess Lowrie's systematic review of iverm…

I agree, some of the trials have issues. But if you would like to cherry pick one trial and use that as evidence to the contrary, I will direct the reader to a firehose of ivermectin studies, which the reader can evaluate on their own: https://ivmmeta.com You really cannot trust the raw risk estimates that they give on this site. But it's the most comprehensive list of trials for ivermectin there is, and a place for…

> I agree, some of the trials have issues. But if you would like to cherry pick one trial and use that as evidence to the contrary, I will direct the reader to a firehose of ivermectin studies, which the reader can evaluate on their own:

Surely the point of the OP's post is that the reader can't evaluate these studies on their own. At least not without undertaking the kind of review and background research that is not reasonable for even the expert reader.

Not to mention the irony of accusing the GP of cherry-picking when the site you linked is a cherry-picked list of trials curated by anonymous alleged HCWs.

Re: Time to assume that health research is fraudulent until proven otherwise?

#202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sadly amused by all this. The complaint I hear about privately done research is it's all tainted by the profit motive, and so research should be funded by the government, as then it'll be pure and untainted by selfish motives. Of course, government funded motives are just as tainted by selfish motives, if not more. Even worse, the people who make the funding decisions aren't spending their own money, so they have…

I think there are two separate versions of "private research" that people below are responding to. In one, a company has a problem and they pay researchers to work on it. The key metric is solving the problem or making progress on in depending on the time scale- good orgs have different scales (usually from 3 months to 5 years at most) that they are investing in. In this case, there is little room for fraud or decept…

Good points, but there's another wrinkle. If a company pays a research institution to do a fraudulent study, the research institution risks losing their status as a reputable research outfit, and thereby loses a multiple of that as other companies avoid funding them.

A prestigious reputation is like glass - easy to break, very hard to put back together.

You'd think this would work with government funding, too. But it appears it does not. It could be because one's "reputation" is based on how many papers are published and how many cites. This is like rating a programmer on how many lines of code written.

It is not a measure of quality at all.

Re: Time to assume that health research is fraudulent until proven otherwise?

#203
What I want to know is how does this issue impact the notion that we all seem to buy into that we should "follow the science".

Scientists themselves have a hard time "following the science". Add to it the observation that when an issue is getting lots of attention outside of academia, then there are usually some really strong incentives (profit, prestige) associated with doing the science and applying it (e.g., epidemiological science during a global pandemic).

The question seems not to be about how can normal people "follow the science" but rather, why should normal people trust at all that any touted science is anything more than bullshit spouted by highly-motivated sophists?

Re: Time to assume that health research is fraudulent until proven otherwise?

#204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In UK you have a chance to end up with a "hate crime" if you don't follow the official line of (no)thinking(with a low change of being arrested). Pretty crazy stuff going on lately(past few years).

Are you confused that a “question” can be a hate crime? Seems pretty straight-forward to me?

Asking "What's your birth sex?" might end up being a "hate crime" with the way things are going.

Re: Time to assume that health research is fraudulent until proven otherwise?

#205
post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing is 100%. I'm talking about incentives here, and people do things almost entirely on selfish impulses. Money is a powerful motivator, and people are strongly motivated to not spend their own money on bullshit. That motivation is absent when government funds things - but other motivations remain.

Sure, I just think its an interesting story considering he might have been nominated for the Nobel Prize in physics for totally fraudulent work

Pulitzer Prizes have been awarded for work later shown to be complete frauds. Those severely damaged the value of getting one. I know I don't attach any respect for Pulitzer Prizes.

Re: Time to assume that health research is fraudulent until proven otherwise?

#206
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

don't replicate != fraudulent I'm mostly confident in the COVID vaccines <- Is this "mostly" qualifier not the dangerous front end of misinformation and vaccine hesitancy?

I've got both vaccines especially early for my age group (clinical vulnerability) and I've been lobbying my vaccinated peers to at least get one dose, so apparently not. I say "mostly confident" because we have literally zero data of effects after 3 years and can only make inferences, and it's foolish to feign knowledge you do not have to avoid being called "hesitant", but my lack of confidence does not make me hesit…

You are recommending something over nothing despite not being confident in the data about your recommendation?

Which vaccines were in "both vaccines?" An mRNA and J&J, or just both administrations of a two-shot mRNA vaccine?

Re: Time to assume that health research is fraudulent until proven otherwise?

#207
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get the sense from colleagues and visiting different universities that this varies across the US, Canada, the UK, and the EU, but grants are now the bread and butter at most US universities. It's not really enough to publish 100s of articles, or have a high h index, it's to bring in money even if it's not strictly necessary for your research. Part of the reason we have the problem you're mentioning is not that ther…

The problem here is not profit but the reverse, the corruption comes from the absence of profit. Universities and grants are this firehose of tax money being sprayed everywhere without even the slightest bit of accountability in how it's used. The government effectively "loses" all of it in accounting terms, but because it's tax it doesn't matter. The buyer is blind and doesn't even bother looking at the papers they'…

> Universities and grants are this firehose of tax money being sprayed everywhere without even the slightest bit of accountability in how it's used.

This is definitely not true, recipients of grants are heavily restricted on what kind of things they can spend that money on. I can't even fly a non-domestic carrier using grant money without proving no other alternatives exist.

Do research projects sometimes fail to deliver? Yeah. But that's just the reality of doing research. The problem I see is people expect research to be closer to development, with specific ROIs and known deliverables years ahead of time. Sometimes in the course of research you realize what you said you were going to do is impossible, and that's a good result we need to embrace, instead of attaching an expected profit to everything.

> Bell Labs, DeepMind, Google Research

I don't know so much about all the labs you listed, but just taking these three, they certainly don't have a good feeling for what their research is worth either. Do you think Bell Labs fully comprehended the worth of the transistor? For all the research Google does, ad money still accounts for 80% of their revenue. DeepMind is a pretty ironic choice because Google has dropped billions into them and it's still not clear where the profit is going to come from. So it's not clear anyone, even those with a profit motive, have any way to judge what any piece of research is actually worth.

But that's not to say there's anything wrong with that... that's just how research works. You don't know how things are going to turn out, and sometimes it takes a very long time to figure that out, and it. This is why massive corporations like AT&T, Intel, Google, Xerox, MS etc. are able to run such labs.

> The first thing that happens when the corporate labs get interested in an area is that universities are immediately emptied out because they refuse to pay competitive wages

I've seen this happen first hand. In my experience these researchers usually go on to spend their time figuring our how to get us to click on more ads or to engage with a platform more. In one instance, I remember one of my lab mates being hired out of his PhD to use his research to figure out which relative ordering and styling of ads on a front page optimized ad revenue for Google. They paid him quite a lot of money to do that, and I guess it made Google some profit. But is the world better off?

Re: Time to assume that health research is fraudulent until proven otherwise?

#208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you confused that a “question” can be a hate crime? Seems pretty straight-forward to me?

Asking "What's your birth sex?" might end up being a "hate crime" with the way things are going.

For what possible reason are you asking that question of anyone?

Re: Time to assume that health research is fraudulent until proven otherwise?

#209

What I want to know is how does this issue impact the notion that we all seem to buy into that we should "follow the science". Scientists themselves have a hard time "following the science". Add to it the observation that when an issue is getting lots of attention outside of academia, then there are usually some really strong incentives (profit, prestige) associated with doing the science and applying it (e.g., epide…

I think this is a very important question. This is something that I struggle with.

I have read a lot of papers. I generally think science can be a force for good. I understand analytic methods developed by or used in papers from my field of interest. I generally believe that those methods are capable of answering important and interesting questions.

In my view, the problem is that you can't know if an article is good or bullshit until you sit with it for, say, at least 2 or 3 hours (some papers even more). And that is for someone with my background. I tried to do this same thing when I had an undergraduate level of education and it (a) took me a lot longer (at least 10x), and (b) I missed a lot of the mistakes/scams/lies that I would not miss now. (I'm sure I am not able to detect some bullshit even still.)

We should follow the good science. We should not follow the bullshit science. This sounds hard because science, being more technical, is harder to vet. But upon further reflection, it seems that society hasn't figured out how to deal with much simpler lies, either.

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