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Right or left, you should be worried about big tech censorship

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Re: Right or left, you should be worried about big tech censorship

#531

Post by ogennadi »

ddingus wrote: post #503
_ykl9 wrote: post #435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. I think it's a major issue in political discourse when people begin to identify with labels and slogans, and treat them as prescriptive (ideals to be adhered to) rather than descriptive (approximate reflections of one's current general beliefs). Surveys consistently show that most of us agree on far more than we disagree when questions are phrased in politically neutral terms. People quickly realize when they…

I put this to a test over a couple years of business travel. While bringing up a field service group, I had a period of high travel taking me all over the US. I enjoy politics, culture and people and am frequently frustrated with the left - right, very tribal political discourse myself. So, what I did was find coffee shops and any other events where people might gather and enjoy conversation and had a bunch of chats…

Was there anything surprising to you? Any viewpoints more common than you previously thought?

Re: Right or left, you should be worried about big tech censorship

#532

Post by markoman »

rayiner wrote: post #526
rayiner wrote: post #511

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, lumping engineers in with the bulk of academia is disingenuous to say the least. Second, what does it say about the desirability of what’s being sold by the technocratic elite that half the country voted for a second term for the egomaniacal dotard (for he surely was that), and most of the other half of the country got behind Joe Biden, a man from a working class background, a graduate of a second tier univers…

The “politics of academics is distasteful” because they too often lack any basis in the lived experience of real people. You point to Trump, but I’d note that not even Democrats like the academic social engineers. On Super Tuesday, Elizabeth Warren (a Harvard professor) had an embarrassing performance. Even in NYC, home of the country’s technocratic elite, voters passed over the technocrat in favor of someone who pro…

If you deplore the left-wing politics of academics because (perhaps) they live in an impractical, protected world, do you also deplore the right-wing politics of the clergy -- who also certainly live in a protected, isolated world? And what experience do the clergy have in the lived experience of 'real' people?

Re: Right or left, you should be worried about big tech censorship

#533

Post by joshuamorton »

stale2002 wrote: post #527
joshuamorton wrote: post #474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No, because our court system could prevent any censorship that infringed on our rights No they can't. The legislature would. Do you trust Nancy pelosi and Ted Cruz to write censorship rules you agree with?

> No they can't. The legislature would Yes the courts would. Lol. Any laws that infringe on our rights, can be struct down by the court system. Thats literally the point of the court system. To strike down laws that infringe on our rights. > Do you trust Nancy pelosi and Ted Cruz to write censorship rules you agree with? Hey, at least if they write them, the courts can strike them down, if they infringe on our rights…

You're simultaneously advocating for a sweeping change in how the courts interpret our rights, while proclaiming that they will continue to protect them.

Currently, the courts have an opinion on censorship that is extreme enough that it protects what Facebook is doing. Today, the government cannot write censorship rules. They all, to use your words, "infringe on our rights". So if you want the government to be able to do that, and the courts to allow some censorship, you have to amend the constitution, and change the recognized legal framework of what our rights even are.

That (broadly) falls to lawmakers, not the courts. Do you trust Pelosi and Cruz (and other lawmakers) to change the very framework of what our right to free speech is, while simultaneously allowing the courts to protect it?

Re: Right or left, you should be worried about big tech censorship

#534

Post by joshuamorton »

totony wrote: post #529
joshuamorton wrote: post #475

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is that if they're simply responding to consumer demand, then it's collectively us who are the censors.

If we were the censor, we would have the government do it (which represents us). Facebook's opinion of what they perceive to be morally dubious does not represent anyone but facebook themselves.

> If we were the censor, we would have the government do it (which represents us).

Well sort of. We can't legally, right? The constitution prevents that. If Facebook is simply censoring the things that consumers ask it to, it is absolutely serving itself (in a profit driven way), but it isn't asserting Facebook's morals. It's asserting something more like "American consumer morals".

Re: Right or left, you should be worried about big tech censorship

#535

Post by ddingus »

ogennadi wrote: post #531
ddingus wrote: post #503

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I put this to a test over a couple years of business travel. While bringing up a field service group, I had a period of high travel taking me all over the US. I enjoy politics, culture and people and am frequently frustrated with the left - right, very tribal political discourse myself. So, what I did was find coffee shops and any other events where people might gather and enjoy conversation and had a bunch of chats…

Was there anything surprising to you? Any viewpoints more common than you previously thought?

Yes!

This one surprised me the most, but people are just tired. Like fried.

Many put a brave face on it, but could use a break. If the chat advanced to where one could really relax and just talk, being tired always came up. And many did not express sadness, just fatigue, sometimes frustration.

"Does it all have to be this hard?"

In my past, I do not recall that expressed as much and from more diverse socioeconomic positions. This sentiment may be majority held now. Just a gut take on arguably small and unscientific samples.

"The Reset" The idea of it all not being sustainable. If it went here, people would roll through examples that concerned them. Some would make connections, but the general feeling of impending doom was far more common than I expected. I am sure more people than we know do not believe things will work out.

And one last disturbing one is along the lines of trading safety for liberty. Tons of people could give two shits about the increased surveillance. More people than I expected harbor and will express basic fear when comfortable enough to share it.

Re: Right or left, you should be worried about big tech censorship

#536

Post by TheTester »

Nevermark wrote: post #400

Big tech censorship will not solved without addressing the other half of a problem with two sides. Without systems that promote quality, non-ideological, nuanced, original, tolerant dialogue we will keep running into the false dilemma of unmoderated cess pools or heavy handed moderation. If we are to avoid this dilemma we need systems that organically promote constructive, tolerant and inclusive communication, and or…

"Without systems that promote quality, non-ideological, nuanced, original, tolerant dialogue we will keep running into the false dilemma of unmoderated cess pools or heavy handed moderation."

Hey you might not have the actual same definition of ideology I have but I think that most people would find "non-ideological" debate basically an impossibility, we can hide ideology with a certain kind of "politeness" if you might but considering what we know about language and how words themselves are loaded I dont even think it is possible to have that kind of debate. I am trying to think the last couple debates I have had both casually and on a more direct setting, and it is impossible for me to see those debates as something that could have been non ideological

Re: Right or left, you should be worried about big tech censorship

#537

Post by rayiner »

markoman wrote: post #532
rayiner wrote: post #526

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The “politics of academics is distasteful” because they too often lack any basis in the lived experience of real people. You point to Trump, but I’d note that not even Democrats like the academic social engineers. On Super Tuesday, Elizabeth Warren (a Harvard professor) had an embarrassing performance. Even in NYC, home of the country’s technocratic elite, voters passed over the technocrat in favor of someone who pro…

If you deplore the left-wing politics of academics because (perhaps) they live in an impractical, protected world, do you also deplore the right-wing politics of the clergy -- who also certainly live in a protected, isolated world? And what experience do the clergy have in the lived experience of 'real' people?

American clergy are a whole lot more diverse in their ideology than academics. Mainline Protestant clergy are often extremely progressive. Islam has a strong socialist streak, etc. They are also typically a whole lot more experienced than academics with people’s real lives and the problems of real communities.

Regardless, nobody is advocating having clergy run the country. (And no, listening to clergy as stakeholders in society and responding to voters’ whose beliefs might be rooted in religion is not the same thing as what the left seeks to do with academics. Putting a clerical “czar” in place to “nudge” people to desirable behaviors would be wild even for the Bush administration.)

Re: Right or left, you should be worried about big tech censorship

#538

Post by taylodl »

What you should be worried about is people claiming to have the right to use your private property and when violating your terms of service complain about "censorship." It's no different than inviting someone to your home for dinner whereupon they go on a racist/political rant to the point where you ask them to leave, and then they complain loudly about censorship.

It's not censorship.

Re: Right or left, you should be worried about big tech censorship

#539

Post by ddingus »

jfengel wrote: post #530
ddingus wrote: post #503

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I put this to a test over a couple years of business travel. While bringing up a field service group, I had a period of high travel taking me all over the US. I enjoy politics, culture and people and am frequently frustrated with the left - right, very tribal political discourse myself. So, what I did was find coffee shops and any other events where people might gather and enjoy conversation and had a bunch of chats…

I associate coffee shops with certain kinds of people. Not universally, of course, but enough to wonder if you were seeing a restricted set of people with whom you were better able to hold those conversations. You mention other events, so perhaps I'm totally wrong here. But I'm curious about the ways that the events you picked may have shaped the conclusions that you drew.

Totally fair.

No, it was in line at the market, hanging in the park, the driver on a longer drive in a cab, Lyft, janitor, trades people...

What I did was just be opportunistic. Tried to fill some of the time I had learning more about how to just talk with people and have them feel they can do the same.

I had biases, mostly targeting normies and people who looked like they may have a story, rough or not.

What I can also tell you is I have done this sort of thing in my past. It is a simple pleasure of business travel.

What I did differently was avoid signaling "my camp", and tried to signal seeking more than anything else. If they were inclined to talk at all, I was frank and said I want perspective outside my familiar circles, so what is your take on... and go from there.

Sometimes I did not offer mine at all, content to let them share what they thought a curious person from somewhere else might want to know.

The primary thing I was interested in was arriving at a comfortable dialog state, like when you know it won't come back to bite, or be on the news, that sort of thing.

And the things I put above inhibit reaching that state.

Re: Right or left, you should be worried about big tech censorship

#540

Post by shoemakersteve »

PicassoCTs wrote: post #441
Nevermark wrote: post #400

Big tech censorship will not solved without addressing the other half of a problem with two sides. Without systems that promote quality, non-ideological, nuanced, original, tolerant dialogue we will keep running into the false dilemma of unmoderated cess pools or heavy handed moderation. If we are to avoid this dilemma we need systems that organically promote constructive, tolerant and inclusive communication, and or…

Right and Left are basically ideologies carrying to the different ideas of society depending upon gender. On average for females a more redistributing, moderating society is more attractive. For men a society that allows them to display "provider" status seems more attractive. To frame the whole thing as a ideological debate, in a society with massive change of roles and influence is intellectual dishonest. Some tran…

This has to be one of the strangest takes I've come across...
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