Earlier quoted context omitted.
You are saying it as if "in bands of no more than 300 people" there was no hierarchy. It starts appearing at few dozens, let alone few hundreds. Proof of it being biological? Look at other primates. They form groups of way less than few hundreds and still maintain (strict) hierarchy.
Wolves were thought to make strict hierarchies but it was debunked. In nature they work more like family - a nonstrict hierarchy.
Huge data leak shatters the lie that the innocent need not fear surveillance
131–140 of 162 posts
Re: Huge data leak shatters the lie that the innocent need not fear surveillance
#132I think the fight against mass surveillance needs first to be lost in order to even start. Right now the average citizen has not witnessed an impact on his life and there's no shortage of other problems he has to deal with. I'm not saying techies should just stay passive though. Special cases - journalists, activists, politically involved - need to be protected right now, and when the problem will be generally unders…
This is called accelerationism. It doesn't really work, making something worse just to make it better isn't effective, changing things for the sake of "getting away from the status quo" is silly.
Let's get some polls going on which politician / billionaire we should "reveal" first... then throw all their private info, backroom deals, what they had for lunch the other day that doesn't match up with their publicly stated diet preference, how many unregistered immigrants they have to take care of their mansions, all the stuff... throw it out in public.
Let's do this to anyone and everyone who's voted for more surveillance powers. Or has sponsored or helped develop them. Like NSO Group employees - especially the CEO.
And maybe if they start to see a problem, and some costs, maybe there will be some change.
Re: Huge data leak shatters the lie that the innocent need not fear surveillance
#133I don't think the problem is with the "lie" that the innocent need not fear surveillance. Most people will agree that mass-surveillance will negatively affect some people that are indispensable to healthily functioning liberal society: journalists, activists, academics, public figures... The problem is that even if most people don't subscribe to the "nothing to hide" argument in general, they do not care about themse…
Because the 'time and effort required to maintain my privacy' part requires immediate and sustained and rigorous action and sacrifice of various comforts, all for a nebulously perceived, personally theoretical risk. The ultimate trajectory of liberal democracy is towards anarchism. But humans are anything but evolutionarily suited for that. We are biologically built to function in a hierarchy, even if the top of that…
“Maintain” and “sustained” are the key words there. The effort is constant and must be. You only have to get it wrong once, those wanting to slurp up all the data they can about you and pass it on can keep trying and trying and tying, and the effort is much less expensive to them (portioned out over the number of subjects they are tracking or attempting to track) than the counter-effort is to the individual.
Re: Huge data leak shatters the lie that the innocent need not fear surveillance
#134Earlier quoted context omitted.
^ This I am going to make a weird, but IMHO apt, comparison to Type 1 Diabetes. T1D is an attritional disease caused by the pancreas's inability to produce enough/any insulin and the list of complications is long and deadly. As someone who has lived with the disease for decades what makes the disease particularly insidious is immediate effort versus delayed impact. The disease affects everything ...every single part…
The key issue in your analogy being that we know T1D will actually have long-term consequences if left untreated. We don't yet know the cost of "lack of privacy". Part of me wonders if privacy advocates will be on the same level as doomsday preppers in a few decades, at least in the Democratic world. It's not that they were wrong to prepare for nuclear war given the information available during the Cold War, it's jus…
I'll add, with regard to T1D, that I am fortunate enough to have an endocrinologist who is effectively an expert tasked with staying up to date with the science and facilitating the best outcomes for me, the patient. I am not sure if there is a parallel when it comes to privacy. Sure, there are orgs out there that will take your money and provide you with solutions that claim to guard privacy but it's difficult to confirm their intent and capability. My endo works in a regulated environment with statutes to guard against kickbacks and other bad behavior and has little incentive for malevolence.
Re: Huge data leak shatters the lie that the innocent need not fear surveillance
#135Earlier quoted context omitted.
Is there a distinct name for this form or relative of whataboutism where some supposed superiority over some other group on some axis irrelevant to the issue at hand is raised to derail criticism of a regime or other group’s abuses?
> some axis irrelevant to the issue at hand Someone asked why Israel is considered a "beacon of democracy" in the region. That opens the conversation to why liberal democracies elevate it over the region's autocracies. The tolerance it shares with other liberal documents is germane.
Re: Huge data leak shatters the lie that the innocent need not fear surveillance
#136Trying to be as charitable as possible to anyone who says they don't need to fear surveillance, I don't believe it is because they think the innocent have nothing to fear, but because the sufficiently uninteresting have nothing to fear. Dissident journalists and political activists may be in the right morally and possibly even legally in some countries, but governments nonetheless have quite a tremendous incentive to…
Re: Huge data leak shatters the lie that the innocent need not fear surveillance
#137Earlier quoted context omitted.
The key issue in your analogy being that we know T1D will actually have long-term consequences if left untreated. We don't yet know the cost of "lack of privacy". Part of me wonders if privacy advocates will be on the same level as doomsday preppers in a few decades, at least in the Democratic world. It's not that they were wrong to prepare for nuclear war given the information available during the Cold War, it's jus…
I agree with your points and think "convenience" is an oft misused term in this context. It is "inconvenient" for me to go downstairs to pick up my Uber Eats delivery. It is nothing short of toil to do the multitude of things required to guard privacy/kidneys. I'll add, with regard to T1D, that I am fortunate enough to have an endocrinologist who is effectively an expert tasked with staying up to date with the scienc…
With privacy, how do I know my 'privacy score'? It's way more difficulty to do any 'health checkup', compare to how you were 6 months before and plan around known risks for the future
Re: Huge data leak shatters the lie that the innocent need not fear surveillance
#138Earlier quoted context omitted.
I agree with your points and think "convenience" is an oft misused term in this context. It is "inconvenient" for me to go downstairs to pick up my Uber Eats delivery. It is nothing short of toil to do the multitude of things required to guard privacy/kidneys. I'll add, with regard to T1D, that I am fortunate enough to have an endocrinologist who is effectively an expert tasked with staying up to date with the scienc…
Also, with T1D we have ways to actually knowing your 'score'. A1C and time in range are good? Urine tests are good? Nice. With privacy, how do I know my 'privacy score'? It's way more difficulty to do any 'health checkup', compare to how you were 6 months before and plan around known risks for the future
Re: Huge data leak shatters the lie that the innocent need not fear surveillance
#139Earlier quoted context omitted.
>London has ~700k cameras A fact that often scurries across my mind when I read about some crime caught in 4k (especially home security cams) for which the police are unable to find the culprits. Are all those cameras actually on?
You think all these cameras would have a positive effect on the crime index. London is just average compared to other European cities, so you might just want to skip spending billions on surveillance in the first place. https://www.numbeo.com/crime/region_rankings_current.jsp?reg...
In some countries, governments have a detailed statistics based on a number of reported crimes per capita. Those surveys are particular good in comparing crime between two cities in that country, but are not so good in cross country comparison for the following reasons:
By its own admission this isn't a good metric
Re: Huge data leak shatters the lie that the innocent need not fear surveillance
#140Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's nowhere as clear-cut as you try to portray it. First of all, there are differences among primates, how are these hierarchies structured and some of it is also, surprisingly, cultural. (Look for example at work of Robert Sapolsky.) I for example believe that hierarchies are a cultural artifact of civilization, not a biologically inherent human value. The inherent human value is deference to authority, which is us…
I don't think deference to authority is inherently human, there are plenty of humans who resist authority to various degrees independent of socialization. It might be a "median" human quality though
I think it is a useful value (and so it evolved in humans), because it forms the basis of parent-child relationship and the transfer of culture. So as young, we reluctantly defer to authority of our parents and other elders, and as we grow older, we begin to believe in the existence of authority as necessary to prevent the cultural collapses due to social experimentation gone wrong (which might result as pursuit of other human values). The fear of such cultural collapse (and the need to prevent them, through authority) is the focal point of conservative values.
Of course, in modern society, this gets pretty muddled, because the rate of change in societies has accelerated and actual authorities (in power) are often younger and change too quickly to really facilitate the transfer of life experience between generations. From this grows various forms of resentment, which is further shaped by ideological propaganda. My point is, I believe that the demand for more authoritarianism comes from people who believe that culture (they grew in) is in peril and want to slow or stop the rate of its change.
It might also be a reason why people believe in God - as Dan Dennett pointed out, it's more like that people believe that belief in God is itself a good thing, rather than necessarily believing in God as an existing being. This is, again, a manifestation of the belief that some authority is required.