Don’t Let Police Arm Autonomous or Remote-Controlled Robots and Drones • Hacker News Board

Re: Don’t Let Police Arm Autonomous or Remote-Controlled Robots and Drones

#121

Post by greeneggs » Mon, Jul 19, 2021, 2:28 AM UTC

kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #108

plank_time wrote: post #30

The militarization of the police in the US is a huge problem that is out of control. I was extremely disappointed that Obama didn’t not only rein in this militarization but effectively made it worse. We are now having to deal with a generation of cops who think they are GI Joe but don’t have the training. This is why so many unarmed people are getting shot by the cops, because they start their day thinking they are i…

Combat vets aren't the problem. They are less likely to shoot. It's the wannabes doing paramilitary cosplay who are the heart of the issue.

Statistically, combat veterans are 6 percentage points more likely to shoot than non-veterans. (32% versus 26% have discharged their service firearm while on duty, other than at a gun range or during training.)

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/02/08/a-closer-lo...

Re: Don’t Let Police Arm Autonomous or Remote-Controlled Robots and Drones

#122

Post by c_o_n_v_e_x » Mon, Jul 19, 2021, 2:50 AM UTC

mdorazio wrote: post #69

Retric wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Drones should be much easier to intercept than rocket / artillery shell attacks which have become significantly less effective. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Dome

This is not clear at all. Rockets and artillery shells follow high trajectory, extremely predictable ballistic paths. If your radar is good enough to accurately spot the rocket or shell against the entirely blank backdrop of sky, you can shoot it down. Drones, on the other hand, can fly low to the ground and move in unpredictable ways if needed so that 1) radar can't find them easily, and 2) even if it does, your cou…

Jamming GNSS is the next obvious choice. Low noise gyros and accelerometers needed for inertial guidance/dead reckoning over long distances are expensive.

Now something that could fly via visual guidance like a Skydio is interesting... Counter with giant spotlights or laser dazzlers to blind the onboard cameras?

Re: Don’t Let Police Arm Autonomous or Remote-Controlled Robots and Drones

#123

Post by essayist » Mon, Jul 19, 2021, 3:06 AM UTC

xyzelement wrote: post #111

plank_time wrote: post #30

The militarization of the police in the US is a huge problem that is out of control. I was extremely disappointed that Obama didn’t not only rein in this militarization but effectively made it worse. We are now having to deal with a generation of cops who think they are GI Joe but don’t have the training. This is why so many unarmed people are getting shot by the cops, because they start their day thinking they are i…

\\ This is why so many unarmed people are getting shot by the cop How many unarmed people are killed by the police each year in the us? When I ask this question, most people guess "thousands" or "tens of thousands". The real number is around 50. Of course the ideal number is 0 but the US is very far from having a " police killing unarmed people " problem.

The Washington Post says the police killed 413 unarmed people from 1/1/2015 through 7/16/2021, about 63/year.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/polic...

Re: Don’t Let Police Arm Autonomous or Remote-Controlled Robots and Drones

#124

Post by alexanderdmitri » Mon, Jul 19, 2021, 4:12 AM UTC

chroma wrote: post #115

jackson1442 wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This same argument could ostensibly be extended to anyone. There are armed criminals everywhere, why aren’t you carrying ${armory} on you at all times? It seems to me like a police station, as well as select trained officers could be stocked with lethal weapons, while regular patrol officers carry nonlethals. Cops generally do not need a gun to pull someone over for speeding. If they are pursing someone known to be a…

> There are armed criminals everywhere, why aren’t you carrying ${armory} on you at all times? I am, along with around 10% of adults in my state. Concealed carry by law-abiding citizens is more prevalent than ever, and I'm very glad this is the case. When I lived in the bay area, I was attacked several times a year. The only reason I wasn't crippled or killed was because I managed to outrun my attackers. Police were…

Assuming you now live in PA (matches the 10% concealed stat you gave[0]), there's a much higher death rate by gun than CA[1].

FL and CO also have 10% of their populations holding concealed licenses and their gun death rates are worse than PA's.

The consensus is that guns reduce safety in communities[2].

[0] https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/blog/the-most-armed-states/

[1] https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/guns-crime/news/2019...

[2] https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/more-guns-do-not-...

Re: Don’t Let Police Arm Autonomous or Remote-Controlled Robots and Drones

#125

Post by parineum » Mon, Jul 19, 2021, 5:31 AM UTC

jMyles wrote: post #103

parineum wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When a man comes home and finds his wife in bed with another man whom he then murders, how will the courts find that man and bring them to justice?

This has never been the job of police, but of the much older institution of the sheriff (though today, there's hardly a distinction).

I'm clearly talking about today and the future.

Re: Don’t Let Police Arm Autonomous or Remote-Controlled Robots and Drones

#126

Post by chroma » Mon, Jul 19, 2021, 5:41 AM UTC

alexanderdmitri wrote: post #124

chroma wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are armed criminals everywhere, why aren’t you carrying ${armory} on you at all times? I am, along with around 10% of adults in my state. Concealed carry by law-abiding citizens is more prevalent than ever, and I'm very glad this is the case. When I lived in the bay area, I was attacked several times a year. The only reason I wasn't crippled or killed was because I managed to outrun my attackers. Police were…

Assuming you now live in PA (matches the 10% concealed stat you gave[0]), there's a much higher death rate by gun than CA[1]. FL and CO also have 10% of their populations holding concealed licenses and their gun death rates are worse than PA's. The consensus is that guns reduce safety in communities[2]. [0] https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/blog/the-most-armed-states/ [1] https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/guns-c…

I don’t live in Pennsylvania. I live in a blue state that has lower crime than California.

I don’t believe most of the studies about guns and violence. The people doing them are almost always ideologically motivated. (Including the “guns reduce crime” studies.) If you look at the details, you find them counting suicides as “gun violence” to boost their stats. Your second link makes that “mistake”. Another common mistake is to ignore all confounders. Yes people who own guns might be more likely to be murdered. Perhaps they own guns precisely because their fears are justified. Lastly, studies almost always conflate legal and illegal gun ownership. There is a huge difference in risk between a law abiding citizen who gets a concealed carry permit and a gang member who illegally carries.

The sad truth is that nobody is doing good research on this topic. Moreover, studies like these are barking up the wrong tree. I’m certain that restricting some rights would lead to improved outcomes, but that doesn’t mean we should restrict freedom of speech or voting. So too for the right to defend oneself from violent criminals.

Re: Don’t Let Police Arm Autonomous or Remote-Controlled Robots and Drones

#127

Post by alexanderdmitri » Mon, Jul 19, 2021, 6:25 AM UTC

chroma wrote: post #126

alexanderdmitri wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Assuming you now live in PA (matches the 10% concealed stat you gave[0]), there's a much higher death rate by gun than CA[1]. FL and CO also have 10% of their populations holding concealed licenses and their gun death rates are worse than PA's. The consensus is that guns reduce safety in communities[2]. [0] https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/blog/the-most-armed-states/ [1] https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/guns-c…

I don’t live in Pennsylvania. I live in a blue state that has lower crime than California. I don’t believe most of the studies about guns and violence. The people doing them are almost always ideologically motivated. (Including the “guns reduce crime” studies.) If you look at the details, you find them counting suicides as “gun violence” to boost their stats. Your second link makes that “mistake”. Another common mist…

The second link clearly breaks down gun deaths into two separate charts for the leading causes of these deaths, homicide and suicide. Where does it make that mistake and why do you have the word "mistake" quoted?

You should read the last link, it addresses pretty much everything you bring up, including the handicaps placed on research, adjustment for gun suicides, and the conflations that might tilt the arguments either way.

Maybe some people performing these studies are doing so for ideological reasons, but there's a clear reason why the pro-gun lobby has made it increasingly difficult to do good research and have clear-minded debates over the topic and it is not ideological, or even logical, unless you understand they're only doing it to maximize their sales and de-regulate their industry.

Gun ownership, and use, just like your arguments, tend to center around emotions and compensating for insecurities than around science and research (and common sense imo). They also tend toward low empathy justifications, like writing off gun suicides as not real gun violence.

Re: Don’t Let Police Arm Autonomous or Remote-Controlled Robots and Drones

#128

Post by chrisseaton » Mon, Jul 19, 2021, 6:56 AM UTC

anigbrowl wrote: post #73

chrisseaton wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The vast majority of police never actually need their weapons. So why are they routinely carrying them? https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/02/08/a-closer-lo... There's tons of dangerous things we could carry around just in case, but we don't because they'd be seen as aggressive.

Same reason I have 3 fire extinguishers although I've never had a fire situation; you don't want to find yourself without if you suddenly need it. Aer they over-armed, poorly trained, and often unreasonably paranoid? Yes. Being armed doesn't defend one against being surprised, and radios have saved far more police lives than guns on hips. But the work is by nature unpredictable, and the US is an unusually heavily arm…

> Same reason I have 3 fire extinguishers

Do you carry 3 fire extinguishers on your hip?

Or do you have them nearby and reasonably available to you for rare times that you do need them?

Re: Don’t Let Police Arm Autonomous or Remote-Controlled Robots and Drones

#129

Post by AYBABTME » Mon, Jul 19, 2021, 7:05 AM UTC

Sophistifunk wrote: post #106

AYBABTME wrote: post #102

I think _autonomous_ weapon systems that pick targets and fire autonomously are obviously scary. However - and this is probably not going to be popular - I think if robots are remote controlled, it's probably for the best if lawful-violence-monopoly-appliers (i.e. the state) uses them instead of putting humans out there with weapons. I think a lot of situations escalate to higher echelons of violence when the (e.g.)…

And I put it to you that being safely miles away in an airconditioned box without risk of being swarmed by a mob for shooting first will make police more likely to escalate violence much sooner. How are we supposed to know which is correct before it's too late?

Historically, providing alternative methods of de-escalating situations to law enforcement has proven effective in diminishing usage of lethal force. In the end it's speculation, and your guess or mine.

Your guess is premised on (1) the belief that police officers will act more carelessly, thinking they're in a video-game if they control remote machines. My guess is premised on (2) the belief that undue escalation of force happens when police officers feel their life is at risk, and removing this element from the situation will improve things.

(1) assumes that police officers are acting violently out of disregard for others, and (2) assumes that police officers are acting violently out of fear for themselves.

I'm a humanist and I think (2) is more likely than (1). It seems a simpler and more pragmatic assumption, to me, that police officers may act overly violently due to fear. I much prefer dealing with someone who's able to maintain a cool head, than dealing with someone who feels threatened.

Re: Don’t Let Police Arm Autonomous or Remote-Controlled Robots and Drones

#130

Post by AYBABTME » Mon, Jul 19, 2021, 7:11 AM UTC

phkahler wrote: post #104

AYBABTME wrote: post #102

I think _autonomous_ weapon systems that pick targets and fire autonomously are obviously scary. However - and this is probably not going to be popular - I think if robots are remote controlled, it's probably for the best if lawful-violence-monopoly-appliers (i.e. the state) uses them instead of putting humans out there with weapons. I think a lot of situations escalate to higher echelons of violence when the (e.g.)…

>> If instead a robot is the agent being threatened, the equation would be much different. There is no need to have an armed robot then, since self defense is not necessary. It is IMHO very bad for police to shoot in domestic calls, as you never really know who the "bad guy" is, and killing someone is equivalent to saying "is someone is gonna kill some here, its gonna be me". For other situations like robbery maybe i…

Not as big a need to protect the robot, but the robot might be trying to protect other people, and thus would require some method of disabling an attacker. Egregious example: a hostage situation, or an active shooter situation. With a remote controlled robot, you can use less lethal weapons against the attacker, since the robot can be sacrificed (whereas I assume we'd rather not sacrifice police officers).