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Right or left, you should be worried about big tech censorship

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Re: Right or left, you should be worried about big tech censorship

#431

Post by SantalBlush »

naniwaduni wrote: post #321
trainsplanes wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The most abhorrent idea of all to me is that there are stupid, weak people that are worse than "us" that we need to shield from bad ideas because they are not smart enough (like we are) to handle them. Gullible people exist. I mean, it's such a well-known phenomenon that the term "gullible" exists to describe people who fall for what should be obviously false information and lies. We all have our instances of gulli…

The term "elf" exists to describe a kind (well, a few kinds) of supernatural vaguely-humanoid being. This is not generally considered evidence for the existence of elfs.

Exactly. Only a gullible person would think so.

Re: Right or left, you should be worried about big tech censorship

#432

Post by SantalBlush »

rayiner wrote: post #342
markoman wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Instead of making a snarky smear upon the faculty of what is probably the most coveted university in the world, why don't you just come out and make an informed argument on what you find so wrong with them? “There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the…

As an immigrant to America, I have thought hard about the differences between it and the developing country I came from. We don’t have any shortage of intellectuals, and those Harvard professors export their ideas for the whole world. Professors at elite colleges have created exactly zero prosperous nations. I’m convinced that what we’re missing is ordinary Americans.

>Professors at elite colleges have created exactly zero prosperous nations.

You mean all by themselves? Well neither have plumbers, but I'm not about to disparage them over it, either.

Re: Right or left, you should be worried about big tech censorship

#433

Post by naasking »

SantalBlush wrote: post #426
acituan wrote: post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the contents of Facebook is a corporate business decision, not a reflection on morality. Are you suggesting business decisions are exempt from having moral consequences? Are the decision makers somehow less culpable as long as it is "just business"?

Of course business decisions have moral consequences. Does this imply that all business leaders are arbiters of morality, or is it only Zuckerberg--who is just making business decisions like the rest--who is an arbiter of morality? The answer is, he's not. He's just a greedy person with a powerful company. There are no real moral decisions to be found here, hyperbole notwithstanding.

> Does this imply that all business leaders are arbiters of morality, or is it only Zuckerberg--who is just making business decisions like the rest--who is an arbiter of morality?

Zuckerberg and other social media CEOs are the only ones using moral language to justify censorship, hence the irony of Zuckerberg as moral arbiter

Re: Right or left, you should be worried about big tech censorship

#434

Post by triceratops »

rayiner wrote: post #342
markoman wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Instead of making a snarky smear upon the faculty of what is probably the most coveted university in the world, why don't you just come out and make an informed argument on what you find so wrong with them? “There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the…

As an immigrant to America, I have thought hard about the differences between it and the developing country I came from. We don’t have any shortage of intellectuals, and those Harvard professors export their ideas for the whole world. Professors at elite colleges have created exactly zero prosperous nations. I’m convinced that what we’re missing is ordinary Americans.

> Professors at elite colleges have created exactly zero prosperous nations.

It turns out that you can make that statement for any group of people. It takes all kinds of people to build prosperous nations.

It'a also particularly ironic that you're writing this because of a project that professors (and grad students) at some elite colleges started back in the 1970s, with some funding from the defense department. And their creation (the Internet) led to historic amounts of wealth creation in a stupendously short amount of time.

I also wonder where Britain would be without the numerous professors at elite colleges whose research in physics, mathematics, and chemistry made the Industrial Revolution possible.

Re: Right or left, you should be worried about big tech censorship

#435

Post by _ykl9 »

Nevermark wrote: post #400

Big tech censorship will not solved without addressing the other half of a problem with two sides. Without systems that promote quality, non-ideological, nuanced, original, tolerant dialogue we will keep running into the false dilemma of unmoderated cess pools or heavy handed moderation. If we are to avoid this dilemma we need systems that organically promote constructive, tolerant and inclusive communication, and or…

Agreed. I think it's a major issue in political discourse when people begin to identify with labels and slogans, and treat them as prescriptive (ideals to be adhered to) rather than descriptive (approximate reflections of one's current general beliefs).

Surveys consistently show that most of us agree on far more than we disagree when questions are phrased in politically neutral terms. People quickly realize when they actually talk to other people that most are fairly reasonable and relatable, even if they have good faith disagreements on particular points, but social media being optimized for maximum engagement with shallow/short-form discussion just results in seeing the most extreme elements of society talk over each other and largely fail to come to a common understanding.

Re: Right or left, you should be worried about big tech censorship

#436

Post by naasking »

clucas wrote: post #239
MrStonedOne wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>But what's the concrete proposal here? How would things actually work? Will the services be forced to accept whatever unmoderated feed of filth the linked to service sends their way? If not, how is this supposed to fix the moderation problem? Does gmail block emails from your friends containing misinformation? Why should facebook be allowed to do the same thing?

I think it's OK to say (1) you are allowed to send pornographic magazines through the mail from your place of business, but (2) you are not allowed to put a pornographic image on the front of your building. I also think it's fair to carry this analogy over to the internet, and the difference between an email and a social media post.

And that would be fine, social media companies don't have to promote "objectionable" content in curated public feeds, but people who deliberately subscribed to or are looking for that content should still be able to see it (like Trump's feed). That's the step people are objecting to, so the analogy you draw just isn't relevant.

Re: Right or left, you should be worried about big tech censorship

#437

Post by [deleted] »

semitones wrote: post #425
Nevermark wrote: post #400

Big tech censorship will not solved without addressing the other half of a problem with two sides. Without systems that promote quality, non-ideological, nuanced, original, tolerant dialogue we will keep running into the false dilemma of unmoderated cess pools or heavy handed moderation. If we are to avoid this dilemma we need systems that organically promote constructive, tolerant and inclusive communication, and or…

"Without systems that promote quality, non-ideological, nuanced, original, tolerant dialogue we will keep running into the false dilemma of unmoderated cess pools or heavy handed moderation." - it is impossible to measure the qualifiers "quality", "nuanced", "tolerant", "original", "non-ideological" while still being objective. Thus, whatever implementation for enforcing these qualifiers you choose, it will inevitabl…

[deleted]

Re: Right or left, you should be worried about big tech censorship

#438

Post by [deleted] »

prawn wrote: post #423
Nevermark wrote: post #400

Big tech censorship will not solved without addressing the other half of a problem with two sides. Without systems that promote quality, non-ideological, nuanced, original, tolerant dialogue we will keep running into the false dilemma of unmoderated cess pools or heavy handed moderation. If we are to avoid this dilemma we need systems that organically promote constructive, tolerant and inclusive communication, and or…

I like your comment and think it could potentially approach the broader problem in a roundabout way, but it does feel like a separate thing. But ignoring that, I run a forum and so think a lot about ways of encouraging decent conversation. I think Reddit mostly does pretty well in that (in my experience) the junk is hidden and requires effort to read. Hacker News pushes it down the page, but it's trivial to scroll do…

[deleted]

Re: Right or left, you should be worried about big tech censorship

#439

Post by 1vuio0pswjnm7 »

Nevermark wrote: post #400

Big tech censorship will not solved without addressing the other half of a problem with two sides. Without systems that promote quality, non-ideological, nuanced, original, tolerant dialogue we will keep running into the false dilemma of unmoderated cess pools or heavy handed moderation. If we are to avoid this dilemma we need systems that organically promote constructive, tolerant and inclusive communication, and or…

Ha, I was going to add basically the same sidenote, even calling it a sidenote and using the word framing. All I was going to state was that the title could have been "right, left or center" but instead he chose "left or right". WTF.

We could almost imagine the author himself is vying for attention by pushing the hot buttons known to work. Either that or he is incapable of recognising his own foibles.

Re: Right or left, you should be worried about big tech censorship

#440

Post by cable2600 »

Actually the people getting banned and censored did Gab and a few others that were cut off from Paypal, Visa, Patreon and others. They have to go somewhere, and are not wanted on Big Tech social networks. They have been radicalized as a result. Believing conspiracy theories and alt-right groups.
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