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“We're Shutting Down Our 3G Network”

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Re: “We're Shutting Down Our 3G Network”

#51
post #4

VoLTE is so damn frustrating. LTE works via plug and play with any phone that supports the correct bands, but VoLTE doesn't. I have a Sony Xperia phone here in Canada and it's just not possible to use it on VoLTE without rooting to install specific provisioning files and whatnot. And that's not even counting how you can't just go from country to country without changing firmware. I've always used a local SIM whenever…

I understand why you feel that is ironic, but the VoLTE call on Bell uses only the Bell LTE data bearer and not any other resources that are VoLTE specific from the Bell network. Everything relating to VoLTE is coming from Verizon. In many roaming situations VoLTE roamers are downgraded to CS in order to comply with lawful intercept.

Re: “We're Shutting Down Our 3G Network”

#52
post #50
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is apparently a photo of the easily replaceable card that it's on: https://www.ebay.com/p/3035604932 I'm not sure how you plan on taking apart the dashboard for less than $50 of labor, though.

It doesn't have to be placed in the dashboard.

So you're saying that existing cars, where it's in the dashboard, can be modified for almost nothing to put this card someplace else?

Edit: I mean, hindsight is great when you're designing a new car, and Tesla did make it much easier to replace this card in newer models, but we're talking about old cars. 75 minutes of labor for an S, 90 for an X.

Re: “We're Shutting Down Our 3G Network”

#53
post #4

VoLTE is so damn frustrating. LTE works via plug and play with any phone that supports the correct bands, but VoLTE doesn't. I have a Sony Xperia phone here in Canada and it's just not possible to use it on VoLTE without rooting to install specific provisioning files and whatnot. And that's not even counting how you can't just go from country to country without changing firmware. I've always used a local SIM whenever…

VoLTE has been "broken" (from a standards perspective) since before it even launched in most markets - it is just too "finicky" and configuration-specific. LTE/4G demonstrated the success of standards in that it "just works" as long as you have the right bands in place. Since most (modern) phones have the bands needed for the main global markets, you can pop in a SIM card and get connected anywhere.

VoLTE is far more complex, and there's network-specific configurations "hard-coded" into the (usually) Qualcomm modem firmware, including IPSec parameters for communicating with the IPsec endpoint in front of the IMS SIP server.

An example of one of these configurations (in JSON-ish format): https://github.com/JohnBel/QualcommMBNs/blob/master/extracte... - even including things like a "user agent":

``` "ImsUserAgent": { "ValueString": "Vodafone VOLTE Qualcomm" }, ```

VoLTE roaming can work, but it's complex and requires specific roaming agreements between carriers. These arrangements need negotiated individually (for now) between operators, and have a number of considerations including technical and legal - since there's IPSec in use, local laws (in the country you roam in) might restrict the ability to do this, as local lawful intercept wouldn't work. The home network needs to set up rules for which networks won't permit IPsec to be used (I believe AT&T will do this, but only where there's a legal requirement to permit local interception of calls).

The long and short of it is that, as you say, VoLTE is a load more complex than it ought to be. Throw in delivery of SMS-over-IP (settings also in the above MBN example) for extra complexity - many operators rolled out VoLTE/VoWiFi without SMS support, and some still don't properly do SMS over IP as far as I recall.

5G more generally is starting to head this direction too though - with the complexity of EN-DC supported configurations for 4G, and the very limited support for 5G standalone, even among devices advertising it, I fear with 5G we will have another few years to go before you can buy a "5G" phone and have any confidence it will work. VoNR (the successor to VoLTE) will likely have all the same issues replay as we saw with 4G.

I really wish we could get carriers and standards bodies to bash heads together and set up a "baseline" standardised IMS profile for VoLTE/VoWiFi - there's nothing inherently preventing this from working, as you can easily use VoLTE on a private network if you follow the standards, but operators love to meddle, tweak, and add custom useragent strings etc.

Re: “We're Shutting Down Our 3G Network”

#54
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having a white list of devices is pretty unusual in Europe, afaik.

Can confirm, I've worked with mobile phone related stuff for about 15 years and never before this article have I heard of a whitelist. My first reaction is that the concept sounds ridiculous, you're supposed to be able to put a SIM card to any device you find and just use it.

The US (not sure about Canadian) mobile market is completely different to the European one. It's almost alien in comparison - the carrier tries to control absolutely everything, and generally sees the handset as an extension of their network to the extent they want to "type approve" every firmware release on every handset that is "allowed" onto their network.

Apple appeared to become the exception due to having such an "in-demand" handset (going exclusive with AT&T initially might have helped them negotiate better terms with other carriers to get the iPhone to their networks) - mobile operators can't modify the iOS firmware at all. On any other phone, expect branding, pre-installed bloatware apps, modified startup and shutdown screens, modified top-bar to show "5G" on presence of a 4G network, and 6+ month delays to security updates while they get the above modifications made to the firmware before they approve it.

Arguably part of the "control" mindset comes from CDMA networks, where you couldn't "pop the SIM" and change network - you had to get the ESN whitelisted on the network, and that gave the carrier a lot of control over your ability to switch phone, or whether you could buy it from anywhere except themselves. I guess GSM carriers admired this level of customer-capture, and wanted to replicate it.

It sounds like "GSM" carriers are going to have to move fully towards whitelisting to preserve voice calling service when they get rid of their circuit switched fallback networks.

Inbound roaming of foreign users will be interesting in the next few years - without any CSFB voice support, they will likely not be able to serve most incoming roamers (who don't have network-to-network arrangement for VoLTE roaming), and that might cause a loss of roaming revenues once travel levels return towards more of a normal.

Re: “We're Shutting Down Our 3G Network”

#55
post #40

I have no idea what is going on at AT&T but I've definitely seen their customer service slide dramatically in the last few years, to the point that I finally left the network after 9 years. I don't blame the reps - there seems to be complete organizational chaos, and lots of cost-cutting going on making the issue even worse. This solution of just force-mailing out new phones blows my mind. Phones are such a personal…

The new ATT provided phones will almost assuredly have ATT spyware on them as well.

Re: “We're Shutting Down Our 3G Network”

#56
post #52
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't have to be placed in the dashboard.

So you're saying that existing cars, where it's in the dashboard, can be modified for almost nothing to put this card someplace else? Edit: I mean, hindsight is great when you're designing a new car, and Tesla did make it much easier to replace this card in newer models, but we're talking about old cars. 75 minutes of labor for an S, 90 for an X.

> So you're saying that existing cars, where it's in the dashboard, can be modified for almost nothing to put this card someplace else?

Of course I'm not saying that. Please re-read my post if necessary.

Edit: This is a design deficiency, is what I'm saying.

Re: “We're Shutting Down Our 3G Network”

#57
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can confirm, I've worked with mobile phone related stuff for about 15 years and never before this article have I heard of a whitelist. My first reaction is that the concept sounds ridiculous, you're supposed to be able to put a SIM card to any device you find and just use it.

The US (not sure about Canadian) mobile market is completely different to the European one. It's almost alien in comparison - the carrier tries to control absolutely everything, and generally sees the handset as an extension of their network to the extent they want to "type approve" every firmware release on every handset that is "allowed" onto their network. Apple appeared to become the exception due to having such…

> when they get rid of their circuit switched fallback networks

Why? Isn't that stuff they run in software (on network hardware) and could emulate forever for a low cost? (Or at least for another decade until very, very few people would care.)

Re: “We're Shutting Down Our 3G Network”

#58
post #9

BMW recently sent out an email of impending loss of 3G connectivity. > The decision to phase out 3G network technology was made at the discretion of the respective cellular carriers and lies beyond the control of BMW. As a result of the sunset of 3G service by wireless carrier partners, by February 2022 your vehicle will no longer be able to receive any ConnectedDrive/BMW Assist services, such as BMW Assist eCall, Ad…

I'm getting bit by this too, so I've been keeping an eye on possible workarounds. People are finding ways doing upgrades that BWM is mostly saying are impossible: https://www.reddit.com/r/BMWi3/comments/of67m0/i_had_a_3g_to...

Re: “We're Shutting Down Our 3G Network”

#59
post #4

VoLTE is so damn frustrating. LTE works via plug and play with any phone that supports the correct bands, but VoLTE doesn't. I have a Sony Xperia phone here in Canada and it's just not possible to use it on VoLTE without rooting to install specific provisioning files and whatnot. And that's not even counting how you can't just go from country to country without changing firmware. I've always used a local SIM whenever…

I don't even think my carrier Lucky Mobile supports it. I don't really get why? Does this actually save them money or is it because the people who care/need it are incentivized to upgrade to Virgin/Bell? EDIT: Apparently it does automatically but they disable the toggle to turn it off.

Bell supports VoLTE on Lucky, but not WiFi Calling. They only offer it on the Bell and Virgin brands.

It’s likely done purposefully so that customers in rural areas cannot use the flanker brand, and must instead stay with the more expensive alternative.

Re: “We're Shutting Down Our 3G Network”

#60
post #56
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you're saying that existing cars, where it's in the dashboard, can be modified for almost nothing to put this card someplace else? Edit: I mean, hindsight is great when you're designing a new car, and Tesla did make it much easier to replace this card in newer models, but we're talking about old cars. 75 minutes of labor for an S, 90 for an X.

> So you're saying that existing cars, where it's in the dashboard, can be modified for almost nothing to put this card someplace else? Of course I'm not saying that. Please re-read my post if necessary. Edit: This is a design deficiency, is what I'm saying.

Isn't hindsight awesome? Even though your first bit of advice was implemented on day 1 (the modem is on a separate card), it's still expensive to replace it.
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