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Right or left, you should be worried about big tech censorship

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Re: Right or left, you should be worried about big tech censorship

#191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The marketplace of ideas works. It may not work in the timescale you want I'm astounded anyone can say that with a straight face. The misinformation for profit strategies employed by big tobacco, oil, military, pharma etc. have proven extraordinarily effective, time and time again. The timescales are nothing to do with "what I want" and everything to do with the fate of people's lives. From losing relatives to cance…

How can you say that with regards to tobacco? It's all but illegal, completely banned in most public places, you can basically only use it in your home or outdoors alone. "Not on the timescale you want" is the salient point.

[deleted]

Re: Right or left, you should be worried about big tech censorship

#192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You certainly must love the way things are going in Belarus then.

I prefer the way things are run in countries like France and Germany, where people understand the value of free speech in debating politics and spreading new ideas while also recognizing that some limits are necessary (e.g. limits on speech that promotes a resurgence of nazism).

Every startup wants to be a new Facebook. Every modern society wants to be a new Sweden. Turns out that replicating successfully run communities - with their traditions, history and lifestyle - is extremely difficult, if ever possible.

Re: Right or left, you should be worried about big tech censorship

#193
post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a great approach. I like the concise way of stating it. I'll apply it to a couple things that are popular topics right now. --- Automated fact checking: The negative consequences are pretty obvious. It's easy to cheer when the target is neo-Nazis who want to overthrow the government. Well what if the shoe were on the other foot, and Republicans had been able to compel social media companies to flag posts dispu…

I think you are waging political warfare on HN, and violating the guidelines of "Please don't use Hacker News for political or ideological battle. It tramples curiosity." It is important to never demonize your opponents too much, if you are going to try and remain civil with them. >* Pro-life Christians >* Gun owners >* Right-leaning libertarians >* "Selfish"/anti-tax rich people >* The alt-right / neo-Nazi / Q culti…

Please don't use Hacker News for political or ideological battle. It tramples curiosity.

I didn't attack any particular ideology. I politely described my opinion on a specific organization that attempted to overthrow my country's government, first via a soft coup and then by force, as it related to the current discussion.

This smacks of making a list..

And? Are you suggesting that HN is anti-lists?

Re: Right or left, you should be worried about big tech censorship

#194

Just do what smart people have been doing for years - stop using big tech. Stop using Google, Facebook, Apple, IBM, Microsoft. Buy a used computer and install a Free OS and just check out of the entire big tech ecosystem. Otherwise you get what you deserve. And let’s all disabuse ourselves of the incorrect notion that it’s big tech alone which is ordering censorship. It’s our own governments, who use the many secret…

This right here is it, for the most part. I see a lot of people who lament how terrible the takeover of "big tech" is, but they still use Facebook on a regular basis and don't go out of their way to seek alternatives. It's like complaining that Kraft has taken over your local supermarket aisle while you're buying 10 boxes of name-brand mac and cheese.

Re: Right or left, you should be worried about big tech censorship

#195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's because the "marketplace of ideas" is being distorted by algorithms that are going to favor "provocative" ideas that drive clicks. Exciting lies defeat boring truths.

That tells you that "marketplace of ideas" is a dumb idea, because we already have proved a million times that people are not the rational creatures that we were sold we were for a long time. We are smart apes, but apes none the least: emotionally driven by our limbic system, very tribal and status seeking. Prone to rationalize all these basic impulses in a million different ways creating the illusion of rational ind…

There is a marketplace of ideas. That's not anything that is ever going to change. Concepts spread and are accepted or they don't.

The question is only how. Is it going to be by dictate? Is a church or government or institution going to enforce which ideas spread, or is it going to be free, spreading at the level of the individual?

There is no moral alternative to the free exchange of ideas. The only alternative is a restricted exchange... censorship and punishment.

Re: Right or left, you should be worried about big tech censorship

#196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's because the "marketplace of ideas" is being distorted by algorithms that are going to favor "provocative" ideas that drive clicks. Exciting lies defeat boring truths.

It seems unfair to deprecate algorithms which "favor 'provocative' ideas that drive clicks" as a `distortion` of the marketplace of ideas. It seems more that by driving clicks, the algorithms are `facilitating` the marketplace. People are signaling the ideas they prefer, idea suppliers are producing more of such ideas, and the people get these ideas at ever-lower prices. How is that in any way a distortion of an idea…

It's an ideal "twitch" marketplace, not an ideal "deep thought" marketplace. "The marketplace of ideas" wasn't usually considered to be about gossip, rumor, or entertainment. Those are... something, but not "the marketplace of ideas".

Re: Right or left, you should be worried about big tech censorship

#197
The reason that centrists support private censorship now is very simple:

We are now facing disinformation campaigns that have apocalyptic consequences, and normal legal channels are quite ineffective at battling them.

"Well of course, it's not the government's job to decide between true and false, nor to enforce it!" you say.

Bullshit, I say.

Slander is illegal. False advertising is illegal. Fraud is illegal. Defamation is illegal. Perjury is illegal. Filing a false report is illegal.

There are a plethora of torts and laws where you will get sued or jailed for lying about something important (like a court matter) and in those cases the truth is a defense! That means a court decides what is true and what is false.

So we've admitted that we're willing to abridge free speech to protect truth. That's now established. But we're only willing to do it for cases where somebody can show clear damages, and where there's a clear target to sue.

A diffuse, widespread misinformation movement against a concept and not a person? Like climate change, or vaccines, or covid, or Judaism at large? Those aren't protected at all. And why not? Because there isn't a shareholder of climate change who can show that your misinformation has unjustly damaged his share price?

So given this legal vacuum, is it any wonder that the reality-based community has embraced private censorship? Nobody loves this solution, but the alternative is letting one third of the population doom the other two thirds by obstructing the kind of actions we need to survive.

Re: Right or left, you should be worried about big tech censorship

#198
post #26

>First of all, the internet’s “marketplace of ideas” is severely lopsided at the platform level The marketplace of ideas itself has been show to be a bust in recent years, IMHO. Better ideas, better models of truth and reality don't win out. People have not shown themselves interested in intellectual debate or argument. We do not see the 'best' ideas rise to the top. And before anyone asks who I am to judge the best…

That's because the "marketplace of ideas" is being distorted by algorithms that are going to favor "provocative" ideas that drive clicks. Exciting lies defeat boring truths.

[deleted]

Re: Right or left, you should be worried about big tech censorship

#199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>But what's the concrete proposal here? How would things actually work? Will the services be forced to accept whatever unmoderated feed of filth the linked to service sends their way? If not, how is this supposed to fix the moderation problem? Does gmail block emails from your friends containing misinformation? Why should facebook be allowed to do the same thing?

Google is apparently going to be doing that with content on Drive. Not sure what they've said or not said about gMail but what's the difference, really?

The difference is that gmail isn't publicly serving your emails to an open audience. The restrictions on Drive are only for publicly-served content.

Re: Right or left, you should be worried about big tech censorship

#200
post #26

>First of all, the internet’s “marketplace of ideas” is severely lopsided at the platform level The marketplace of ideas itself has been show to be a bust in recent years, IMHO. Better ideas, better models of truth and reality don't win out. People have not shown themselves interested in intellectual debate or argument. We do not see the 'best' ideas rise to the top. And before anyone asks who I am to judge the best…

> We do not see the 'best' ideas rise to the top.

It's the same with the economy. Not the best products win, but the ones with the biggest advertising budget.

We should try to dampen the effect of these counterproductive forces.

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