Right or left, you should be worried about big tech censorship • Hacker News Board

Re: Right or left, you should be worried about big tech censorship

#141

Post by mandmandam » Sun, Jul 18, 2021, 8:19 PM UTC

throwawaysea wrote: post #118

justbored123 wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That tells you that "marketplace of ideas" is a dumb idea, because we already have proved a million times that people are not the rational creatures that we were sold we were for a long time. We are smart apes, but apes none the least: emotionally driven by our limbic system, very tribal and status seeking. Prone to rationalize all these basic impulses in a million different ways creating the illusion of rational ind…

The marketplace of ideas works. It may not work in the timescale you want or with the tradeoffs you want while the truth settles out, but I think these claims that it doesn’t work are hasty. Furthermore there isn’t a better alternative. Right now censorship from platform owners is abusively used to skew political discussions, using the pretense of factuality. I regularly see fact checkers make mistakes or make mislea…

>The marketplace of ideas works. It may not work in the timescale you want

I'm astounded anyone can say that with a straight face.

The misinformation for profit strategies employed by big tobacco, oil, military, pharma etc. have proven extraordinarily effective, time and time again.

The timescales are nothing to do with "what I want" and everything to do with the fate of people's lives.

From losing relatives to cancer and COPD caused by smoking, to the extreme and rapid and irreversible loss of species, this idea that we can trust in invisible forces to save us from demonic ultra-wealthy cunts with no conscience whatsoever is baldly stupid, to the point of criminality.

That said - censorship from platform owners *is* abusively used to skew political discussions, and indeed I'd agree "trust cannot be given to"a few lone entities."

But the record shows quite clearly that the marketplace of ideas, as such exists, is corrupt, perverted, poisoned, bought, sold and not fit for purpose.

Re: Right or left, you should be worried about big tech censorship

#142

Post by notahacker » Sun, Jul 18, 2021, 8:20 PM UTC

khawkins wrote: post #113

ashtonkem wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A quick perusal through history will show that conflicts where one side is censorious and the other is not has basically never happened. Usually the winning side sweeps their misdeeds under the rug afterwards. See: US behavior towards communists and left wing groups during the Cold War, or censorship during WW1 and WW2. The whole "fire in a crowded theater" trope comes from the unanimous Supreme Court decision uphold…

Most people are openly taught about the misdeeds of the McCarthy era in schools and in public discussions. This wasn't swept under the rug, most people agree that it happened and wasn't a good thing.

How much do they learn about the Office of Censorship set up following Pearl Harbour and the role the federal government thought it played in defeating Hitler and Japan? Or the history of battles over "obscenity" laws, often upheld by constitutional courts?

Learning "censorship is unAmerican, here's an example of how we tried it once and it was really bad so we ended it" is the definition of sweeping the nuanced reality of speech battles in the US under the carpet in favour of the free speech version of American exceptionalist myths.

Re: Right or left, you should be worried about big tech censorship

#143

Post by betterunix2 » Sun, Jul 18, 2021, 8:20 PM UTC

TheFalun wrote: post #115

betterunix2 wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Free speech absolutism has not worked very well. Usenet was overrun by neonazis and all the interested discussions moved to moderated newsgroups/mailing lists/forums. A genocidal terrorist organization made effective us of various social media platforms to recruit large numbers of people to their cause and the world is a better place now that they have been banned. Right now we are missing one of our best chances to…

And how many people did those neonazis actually effect? How many more people saw that and immediately criticized the neonazis who wouldn't have seen them before?

The argument that we should let neonazis/etc. parade their ideas around in public so that the world can see them for who they really are has become a lot less convincing because neonazis have refined their tactics (see e.g. "boots for suits"). They are not parading their hatred. Today they start with softer language, focusing on the supposed struggle of white people in America, how non-white people seem to be getting a leg up at the expense of white people, etc. Once they have drawn someone in, someone who for whatever reason found that the "great replacement" or "white genocide" theory resonated with them, they start to give the "explanation" for all the problems -- out of sight, away from people who might criticize them.

Re: Right or left, you should be worried about big tech censorship

#144

Post by throwawayboise » Sun, Jul 18, 2021, 8:20 PM UTC

Nursie wrote: post #70

throwawayboise wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> factually incorrect, scientifically illiterate, conspiratorial, harmful crank ideas gain legs in the online world we've created I don't think this is unique to the online world. It's just how humans are. We are drawn to sensational, scandalous stories for some combination of entertainment and self-righteous outrage/virtue signaling to the others in our tribe.

> We are drawn to sensational, scandalous stories for some combination of entertainment and self-righteous outrage/virtue signaling to the others in our tribe. While I agree, I think there's more to it than that, I think it's more serious than that, and I think the message amplification capabilities afforded to profit-driven (or ideologically driven) bad actors is something we've not really seen before. Certainly not…

I agree that the outcomes are not desirable. Many people over history have recognized this, and that is why we have religions that recognize our inherent flawed or "sinful" nature in this regard and give us a framework of rules for how to live. Look at the "Seven Deadly Sins" just as one example, it's pretty much what the social media algorithms select for when they promote content.

Re: Right or left, you should be worried about big tech censorship

#145

Post by ianai » Sun, Jul 18, 2021, 8:21 PM UTC

Nursie wrote: post #80

AlexTWithBeard wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> factually incorrect, scientifically illiterate, conspiratorial, harmful crank ideas There are indeed some factual mistakes floating around, mostly around covid-is-just-a-flu and the-earth-is-flat discussions. But usually shit hits the fan in social issues of poverty, homelessness, abortion rights and such. Alas, there's no hard science in most of these issues. There is a bunch of plausible-looking speculations, phi…

I don't know, I genuinely don't have a good solution - I'm pretty sure "ban it" is not one. But I think we need to recognise, when we try to address this stuff, that our current picture of speech online is suffering not just from deplatforming, but also domination of some narratives by high volumes of motivated bullshit. > usually shit hits the fan in social issues of poverty, homelessness, abortion rights and such.…

For good reason we don’t accept people yelling “fire” in a movie theater. Anti-vax misinformation during a pandemic is definitely in the same vein as yelling fire in a theater.

There are a few solutions. Don’t know that any of these are possible, but sometimes solutions only get found in a listing of possible solutions.

Any sourcing of the internet as a source of truth could be called into question on face.

Or massive platforms could find a way to be less massive. Ie “we’re just not going to host governmental agencies or politicians.” Also bracketing the scope of posts and information on social media.

Or who knows.

Edit-one observation I’ve had is the internet is best when tied with another source of truth. Ie you can generally try recipes from a website and tell whether it makes palatable food by just making and tasting it.

Re: Right or left, you should be worried about big tech censorship

#146

Post by Nursie » Sun, Jul 18, 2021, 8:23 PM UTC

TheFalun wrote: post #105

Nursie wrote: post #26

>First of all, the internet’s “marketplace of ideas” is severely lopsided at the platform level The marketplace of ideas itself has been show to be a bust in recent years, IMHO. Better ideas, better models of truth and reality don't win out. People have not shown themselves interested in intellectual debate or argument. We do not see the 'best' ideas rise to the top. And before anyone asks who I am to judge the best…

“But the peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is, that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it. If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth; if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of…

It is this attitude which appears to be based on an idealistic assumption that people care about exchanging error for truth.

This is what I am arguing is not really the case, as demonstrated amply by the world around us.

Re: Right or left, you should be worried about big tech censorship

#147

Post by amanaplanacanal » Sun, Jul 18, 2021, 8:24 PM UTC

sneak wrote: post #132

Nursie wrote: post #26

>First of all, the internet’s “marketplace of ideas” is severely lopsided at the platform level The marketplace of ideas itself has been show to be a bust in recent years, IMHO. Better ideas, better models of truth and reality don't win out. People have not shown themselves interested in intellectual debate or argument. We do not see the 'best' ideas rise to the top. And before anyone asks who I am to judge the best…

> Better ideas, better models of truth and reality don't win out. People have not shown themselves interested in intellectual debate or argument. This is plausible, so people believe it. Fortunately, it is false. Compare the state of the world regarding germ theory, human rights, smoking, racism, education, the belief in violence to solve problems, or the delusion that is theism to the world 100 years ago. It used to…

Those are all pre-internet. Not sure they are good examples of how the marketplace works in social media.

Re: Right or left, you should be worried about big tech censorship

#148

Post by wyager » Sun, Jul 18, 2021, 8:26 PM UTC

Nursie wrote: post #26

>First of all, the internet’s “marketplace of ideas” is severely lopsided at the platform level The marketplace of ideas itself has been show to be a bust in recent years, IMHO. Better ideas, better models of truth and reality don't win out. People have not shown themselves interested in intellectual debate or argument. We do not see the 'best' ideas rise to the top. And before anyone asks who I am to judge the best…

> I can see that factually incorrect, scientifically illiterate, conspiratorial, harmful crank ideas gain legs in the online world we've created.

The fact that you phrase your characterization of incorrect ideas like this suggests with pretty high certainty that you don’t exactly have a great birds’-eye view of the epistemic landscape yourself. People who characterize the “opposition” this way mostly get their ideas from NPR-tier Pravda publications, and aren’t exactly better suited for picking out “better models of truth and reality”.

Re: Right or left, you should be worried about big tech censorship

#149

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Jul 18, 2021, 8:26 PM UTC

Nursie wrote: post #26

>First of all, the internet’s “marketplace of ideas” is severely lopsided at the platform level The marketplace of ideas itself has been show to be a bust in recent years, IMHO. Better ideas, better models of truth and reality don't win out. People have not shown themselves interested in intellectual debate or argument. We do not see the 'best' ideas rise to the top. And before anyone asks who I am to judge the best…

[deleted]

Re: Right or left, you should be worried about big tech censorship

#150

Post by Nursie » Sun, Jul 18, 2021, 8:26 PM UTC

MrStonedOne wrote: post #131

Nursie wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this just reinforces that the marketplace of ideas is a bust... personally. Because again, people aren't looking to evaluate rationally.

People are turned off by appeals to authority logical fallacies. Trying to make them the only acceptable source of information is never going to sell.

I'm afraid that people are also turned off by facts that go against their preconceived notions, and people are predisposed to accept, with little question, authorities with whom they already identify.

In fact I'd go as far as saying your argument there is a logical fallacy, as I'm making no claim people should accept appeals to authority.