Do we know how this software is able to do something that others can't; and be very successful, especially being invisible while at it?
Private Israeli spyware used to hack cellphones of journalists, activists
61–70 of 172 posts
Re: Private Israeli spyware used to hack cellphones of journalists, activists
#62I know it's not a foolproof solution but perhaps there should be a greater focus on ethics in Computer Science curricula? The Israeli developers who wrote this software may not even have been exposed to the moral and ethical questions writing such software ought to raise. Perhaps there should be trade associations for developers that calls out software companies that writes immoral software? With great power comes gr…
> The Israeli developers who wrote this software may not even have been exposed to the moral and ethical questions writing such software ought to raise
Of course they have been exposed to ethical questions for writing the software. If you know Israel well, and the famed Unit 8200 [0], the initial creation of this type of software is definitely built with morals in mind - saving lives is the entire impetus.
Lots of security software out of Israel (see CheckPoint, a now public company) is first born out of the IDF with the goal of fighting terrorism and criminals. I don't see an ethics class being the answer here, as this type of cyber & security software has certainly saved lives. The issue is what happens after this software is developed, with seemingly justified reason to exist, and now in the hands of a business growing around it.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_8200
[1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/18/revealed-leak-...
Re: Private Israeli spyware used to hack cellphones of journalists, activists
#63Earlier quoted context omitted.
Old-school techniques were hard to pull off even by trained spies with a proper (and vast) support network, let alone by journalists and John Rando who have never met. If you're on a watch list that gets your phone flagged for malware then it's not a stretch to assume that you can also be physically watched. And meeting in person with journalists or sources while being under surveillance is like painting a target on…
"If you're on a watch list that gets your phone flagged for malware then it's not a stretch to assume that you can also be physically watched." The difference is you need way more resources and funds to physically watch and search a lot of people than to spy on their computer communications or hack in to their phones/laptops. Mass computer surveillance is practical, easy, and affordable.. mass physical surveillance i…
> you need way more resources and funds to physically watch and search a lot of people [...] Mass computer surveillance is practical, easy, and affordable
You're right but old-school methods make everything impractical, hard, expensive, and far riskier for both the dissident who already has enough reasons to just stay quiet, and also for the journalist. They set a very high bar for succeeding. You're asking a regular person to take the end-to-end role of a Cold War spy and their source. And this when having access to sensitive info, suspicious purchases like photographic equipment and chemicals, trips abroad, or any attempt to contact a journalist would individually be enough to put someone on a watch list. There are only so many ways to get in contact with a journalist and set up meetings that don't involve any electronic communication.
The state can take a lot more than the individual. So the question is how many people who have sensitive information to share could or would go that route in face of this dramatically mounting pressure? Anything that raises that bar for doing it is a win for the oppressive regime because it makes surveillance that much easier.
Re: Private Israeli spyware used to hack cellphones of journalists, activists
#64For politicians in democracies citizens are potential voters, foreigners don't matter.
It's still arguably better than dictatorships, where your citizens don't matter either, as long as you have a good police system.
We act surprised when we notice such things but we shouldn't be, it is a mistake to apply the same standards that we, as the lucky citizens of "free countries" enjoy, to any other system of power.
From a less cynical point of view, as an Israeli, I am not happy at all to see this kind of export products from my country. It is in great part because of the conflict. Te SIGINT units are huge and among the people who graduate from the army with this kind of knowledge you will certainly find many who will turn a blind eye to ethics for a huge paycheck. Not to mention that the research itself that the defense apparatus needs attracts capitals from other countries that will buy some of it and use it for unorthodox means. I wish we exported less of these things, especially to autocratic countries. I agree it's horrible.
Re: Private Israeli spyware used to hack cellphones of journalists, activists
#65There may be another side to this. From NSO's website:
> NSO Group licenses its products only to government intelligence and law enforcement agencies for the sole purpose of preventing and investigating terror and serious crime. Our vetting process goes beyond legal and regulatory requirements to ensure the lawful use of our technology as designed.
Also, the company's owner, Novalpina, is not Israeli, though the founders and engineers of this particular surveillance product are in Israel.
Re: Private Israeli spyware used to hack cellphones of journalists, activists
#66> The investigation by the Guardian and 16 other media organisations suggests widespread and continuing abuse of NSO’s hacking spyware, Pegasus, which the company insists is only intended for use against criminals and terrorists. (from the Guardian inquiry about the same topic). Every time we allow special laws or special tools to fight "terrorism" or "child abuse" or other evils that get people worked up, they end u…
How do I allow laws? Or rather what does it mean to not “allow” a law? You are right. Terrorism and cp are commonly used excuses to enable even more surveillance. When you talk about “allowing laws” it makes it sound as if we somehow got conned into letting them have these laws. In reality powerfull people want these tools. Powerfull people get these tools. Where does the allowing happen exactly? And don’t tell me th…
> what does it mean to not “allow” a law?
Voting against any politicians who contribute to its passing, even if they're from your preferred political party.
Re: Private Israeli spyware used to hack cellphones of journalists, activists
#67For politicians in democracies citizens are potential voters, foreigners don't matter. It's still arguably better than dictatorships, where your citizens don't matter either, as long as you have a good police system. We act surprised when we notice such things but we shouldn't be, it is a mistake to apply the same standards that we, as the lucky citizens of "free countries" enjoy, to any other system of power. From a…
> in democracies citizens are potential voters, foreigners don't matter
Not long ago, what determined whether you "mattered" or not was your religion and belief. We now replaced it with a state issued piece of paper and convinced ourselves that this is progress.
Re: Private Israeli spyware used to hack cellphones of journalists, activists
#68Earlier quoted context omitted.
How is it different? They are tools that can be used for both legal and illegal means. If you put legal responsibility on one toolmaker to ensure their tools are not used in an illegal fashion, why wouldn't you do the same for other toolmakers?
Isn't that obvious? An exploit is to encryption as a sword is to a shield. We don't regulate shields.
We do regulate body armor though.
Re: Private Israeli spyware used to hack cellphones of journalists, activists
#69Earlier quoted context omitted.
How do I allow laws? Or rather what does it mean to not “allow” a law? You are right. Terrorism and cp are commonly used excuses to enable even more surveillance. When you talk about “allowing laws” it makes it sound as if we somehow got conned into letting them have these laws. In reality powerfull people want these tools. Powerfull people get these tools. Where does the allowing happen exactly? And don’t tell me th…
> what does it mean to not “allow” a law? Voting against any politicians who contribute to its passing, even if they're from your preferred political party.
Vote for approval voting, ranked choice, or even instant runoff at every level of government so that voting against an incumbent at least has a viable candidate.
Re: Private Israeli spyware used to hack cellphones of journalists, activists
#70I know it's not a foolproof solution but perhaps there should be a greater focus on ethics in Computer Science curricula? The Israeli developers who wrote this software may not even have been exposed to the moral and ethical questions writing such software ought to raise. Perhaps there should be trade associations for developers that calls out software companies that writes immoral software? With great power comes gr…
> The Israeli developers who wrote this software may not even have been exposed to the moral and ethical questions writing such software ought to raise Of course they have been exposed to ethical questions for writing the software. If you know Israel well, and the famed Unit 8200 [0], the initial creation of this type of software is definitely built with morals in mind - saving lives is the entire impetus. Lots of se…
I meant actual ethics - not Israeli hasbara (propaganda). Clearly, the perspective that the Israeli Defense Forces is the bravest and most moral army in the world and that everyone who resists the occupation are evil terrorists is not foreign to them! I meant real ethical questions. Do I have a responsibility if what I create is used for evil? Is "just following orders" a valid defense? Is it right to spy on people who haven't committed any crime? Is the life of a civilian on the enemy side worth less than the life of a civilian on my side?
I'm a software developer so my life is all about identifying and fixing bugs. And it is a "bug" and a big problem that developers are willing to write software to hack journalists' and activists' cell phones. We should fix this bug. More ethics education? Shunning developers writing phone hacking software? I don't know what the solution is.